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Union Council Postponed

The comments below are unmoderated submissions by Live! readers. The Editor accepts no liability for their content, nor for any offence caused by them. Any complaints should be directed to the Editor.
Feb 24 2005 17:11

The emergency meeting of Union Council to consider a motion of no confidence in the ICU President has been postponed.

Click Here for the Full Article

1. Cynic   
Feb 24 2005 22:52

You can run but you can't hide... nuf said

Feb 25 2005 01:55

that may be true, but they have a max of one and a half hours to do it in. I don't think they'll make it.

Feb 25 2005 12:44

*editor attempts to insert black lines over comments referrring to Union staff member, as seen in Council papers*

Feb 25 2005 14:22

MTSocTour, surely you need to decide a warm-up song to be sung as you all walk into the UDH at 7:30- can I suggest 'yesterday'?

5. nes   
Feb 25 2005 14:28

Or 'Help'?

Feb 25 2005 14:39

Hello Dr. OP + other learned friends,

Who was the last ICU President got the boot by a no confidence vote?


Feb 25 2005 15:09

The staff student protocol is referred to in the above document. So if anybody does happen to want know what that means, here it is.

Feb 25 2005 15:41

I always find this a good laugh. One of the many times Arif went back on his word.

In the words of Arif: MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

9. ant   
Feb 25 2005 15:49

So where did the agenda/paper go??

I'm sure it was on the union website earlier....

Feb 25 2005 15:58

Who knows? I think the ramblings by Arif are fairly amusing though!

11. bored   
Feb 25 2005 16:18

If this link doesn't work:

then the paper and agenda has been pulled.

For accountability reasons I expect

12. tom t   
Feb 25 2005 16:30

I expect it's disappeared as it's been pointed out that the Constitution 6.2.b that called the meeting doesn't refer to Extraordinary Meetings. In fact, such meetings don't exist and what's been called is an Ordinary Meeting, like most are.

Just a thought.

Feb 25 2005 16:54

or maybe because you could still read the words under the blacked boxes by using the select text option

Feb 25 2005 16:58

I'm guessing the latter, as it's now back up with "----" instead of the blacking-out.

Feb 26 2005 00:00

What gets me, is that they are so keen to stick to the letter of the Staff-Student protocol with something like this, yet they allow "-------------" to attend council meetings, yet they have not obtained the permission of the Executive (as required by the constitution). At least I couldn't find any such permission on record in this year's Exec minutes.

I also note that the Union manager may attend Council meetings, but not the "-------------". Perhaps that should be enforced!

To me, having seen the original paper - unredacted, it sounds like the grounds for defamation are shaky, and breach of the staff-student protocol is minor. I wonder who gave the legal opinion on which the redacting is based.

Completely on a different topic and not related in any way to the Union. Is everyone aware that magistrates need have no legal training, and hence are not necessarily qualified in any legal basis? Judging by some I've met, they're not selected on the basis of inteligence either.

Feb 26 2005 14:34

If MTSoc are still in need of a song hows about my old time fav:


18. Editor   
Feb 26 2005 16:03

Please note that the penultimate post above this has been edited, ICU-style, to remove all references to a certain "--------------".

Feb 26 2005 16:33

Fact 1) Approved Minutes of any Council Meeting this year.

Fact 2) Regulation 4 (B:46) states that "Union staff may attend meetings when permanent observers or at the invitation of the Chair with speaking rights only."

Fact 3) The Staff-Student protocol states that "Staff members may attend meetings of any body of the ICU when invited or with the permission of the Executive."

Fact 4) No such Chair's invitation is minuted for Council, nor is such an invitation extended according to any Executive Committee minute. If a decision is not minuted, it did not happen.

Fact 5) Regulation 3A states the Permanent Observers of Council, feel free to check it yourself.

I believe that this information does not discuss the "conditions of employment, performance or conduct" of any member of staff and is hence allowed under your current restrictions. It draws no inference on these things, simply drawing attention to publically available documents to which anyone has access.

Should anyone official challenge my interpretation of this protocol, feel free to direct them to me. Upon which I will tell them that to comply with their interpretation of the Protocol, they will have to render unreadable any minutes of meetings and restrict access to the Constitution. Oh wait... I see a pattern emerging...

20. Nia   
Feb 26 2005 16:41

I think what "nonentity" meant to say was:

The sabbaticals have required senior staff to attend council meetings and yet the sabbaticals did not obtain permission from Exec/Council for staff to attend as required by the constitution. (at least [nonentity] couldn't find any such permission on record in this year's exec minutes). This is therefore a breach of the staff student protocol by the sabbaticals.

Anyway, the chair has stipulated that on Tuesday the staff-student protocol will be very strictly enforced so presumably he will ensure that members of staff who are not permitted to be present are not present. Or ask the council whether they would be willing to allow the attendance of those staff members.

Feb 26 2005 16:59

Thats at least one of the points that has been cut from the letter on grounds of staff-student protocol.

Judging by the references to "ICU-style" when editing posts I think perhaps someone in live is being a tiny bit satirical..?

22. Nia   
Feb 26 2005 17:06

Exactly. The President is using the staff student protocol as a weapon. Breaching it in some ways but then citing it, on extremely dubious grounds, as a reason to hide that breach.

It's an important piece of the constitution. It's important because it protects staff and it's important because it protects students. That the President should use it in this way disgusts me. It shows a complete disregard for the interests of staff and students.

Feb 26 2005 18:15

I thought after the accountability motion the Council Chair said he had invited certain people to attend meetings/ sit with him and the sabbs. And constitutionally it is the Chair, not council/exec, who decide who can/cannot attend other than permanent observers*.

(Interestingly, in last year's constitutional reforms, the President gave himself the power to decide which staff should be permanent observers of SAC and TSR, so now for those committees the chair or president can allow a staff member to attend)

So it's not a question of staff conduct at all but whether this action by the chairman (the degree of sabbatical involvement would be a matter of guesswork).

What's more worrying is that unavailablitity of minutes means there's no way of checking who's still a member.

*Point of information: only the union manager is a permanent observer of Council, and only the general and finance managers for Exec.

24. cap   
Feb 26 2005 21:59

well we don't have a union or general manager anymore....

and if that position has been replaced, no one has told me about any new definitions of job descriptions either...

25. amram   
Feb 27 2005 11:53

This whole motion is utterly ridiculous. It is all about tom t and other pedants/socialist twits having a go at mustafa's success through technical details and wrangling over the fine details of bureaucracy that they themselves created. I was not originally an arif supporter, but he has proved himself- for example you may have notcied theat the library is set to open 24 hours in a few weeks time. He is doing a good job, he is a sensible man- uncorrupted by partisan politics and this motion and the loosers who have more time on their hands than is good, should be defeated.

i am sure mr arif will win.

good luck


(the voice of the sensible silent majority!)

Feb 27 2005 12:03


Why don't you read the earlier posts insteading of talking rubbish.

Arif has broken rules left right and centre, and doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I say sack the bastard.

27. tom t   
Feb 27 2005 14:47

I would be the first to applaud Mr Arif's successes, such as improving turnout in the Sabb Elections, even if it did mean breaking election rules a little bit. And persuading College to help the students study 24/7 (should they want to treat their bodies so badly?!) over exam period was something he got done in his previous term. I have also repeatedly made public my concerns for Mr Arif's (personal/health) support structures in the Union.

But breaking one small rule to improve turnout by 100% is a risk that maybe justifies itself.

Systematically running the Union in an opaque way, failing to uphold certain protocols in one direction, then using them harshly in the other, and so on and so forth, simply wears students out and reduces trust too far. Slow down, get stuff done one step at a time, and keep the volunteers (the students who run the clubs, deal with the minibuses, prepares drafts for Sport and Leisure debates, sit on Committees, etc) happy by acknowledging their input and views, and keeping them informed. These volunteers already respect and trust, and are very grateful for the silent/unsung but necessary contribution made by, certain people.

I reckon anyone who wants to run a business and make big changes to it on a whim etc etc should go and work for a business, not run a student-led publically-funded members club.

28. tom t   
Feb 27 2005 14:52


go here:

read the first paragraph, then decide how quickly minds can be changed....

THe job description is meant to be on the website, though I had to get it specially sent to me as the link didn't work. Bonne chance.

29. Seb   
Feb 28 2005 00:21

Amram, the only person partisan here is you: "socialists", don't make me laugh.

Am I a socialist?

30. amram   
Feb 28 2005 00:41

Seb - you come under the category of "pedants" please refer to my post.

Feb 28 2005 09:11

I find the latest blacking out on the union front page quite funny really.

32. Sam   
Feb 28 2005 10:02

Thats a design flaw in your browser, which refuses to render images with alpha transparency (such as my beloved Herbert)

Please direct all complaints to Microsoft.

Feb 28 2005 10:40

Indeed Sam. That's half the reason I don't use "Infernal Exploder" anymore.

Feb 28 2005 11:39

Yeh but Sam,

The majority of IC computers have IE installed. Most students have IE installed too. I guess that working on that, we should have something that does both like before...

Feb 28 2005 12:33

You know, it might be wise to actually make a website that works for everyone, rather than locking out the majority of the internet's users.

Web standards are a bit like Wonka the Sane in the Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. By sticking to web standards, even when they don't work with IE, you're effectively calling the rest of the world insane, while you sanctimoniously sit in your Firefox heated "Outside the Asylum" house.


36. ....   
Feb 28 2005 12:36

Tom Tibbits:

You're a complete & utter pompious, maldramatic, eccentric fool who really needs to start sorting himself out before you criticise others...

Oh, and do the rumours have any truth??(Clapham Common) ;-)

37. kkk   
Feb 28 2005 12:37

Get a Life:

I reckon you should mate.. & maybe start talking about what you know instead of what you don't!!

38. Seb   
Feb 28 2005 14:08

Accountability is not a matter of technical details, Amram. Though I'm not sure you are the person to discuss matters of democracy with.

39. Sam   
Feb 28 2005 18:59

Dear F,

The website according to it's original design and spec worked on every browser because the server detected c**p on the other end and supplied some lovely blank space instead of my darling Herbert.

The current website is not operating to that original design and this is why you see it as you do. I believe you should complain to the Union, as it is they who have altered the artistry that I originally created.


40. cap   
Feb 28 2005 19:50

Wonder if you select text it has a whole layer of hidden text underneath it...

41. noise   
Feb 28 2005 19:59

You're right cap, it appears to say "Welcome to the Students' Union of Imperial College. Imperial College is a college of the University of London and consists of 11,500 students mainly in South Kensington, London and other sites throughout the South of England."

Maybe Herbert is censoring this due to staff student protocol, afterall it does mention the word 'students' and does mention Imperial College Union which is an employer of some staff.

Feb 28 2005 22:06

what's all the fuss about.. we're going to get this council meetin in a few hours aren't we?? and then the Pres can put all this matter behind him & get on with what we elected him for!!!

Why are we wasting all this time!!!???!!! Ofcourse, he has to explain himself but why are we taking everything out of context??

I don't understand.. everyone shouts democracy from the roof tops.. and that we are calling tomorrow's meeting in the name of democracy but you just have to read the above and we realise its far from it..

Please Ladies & Gentleman.. a little respect.. not only for the elected members but also amongst yourselves...

Feb 28 2005 22:32

...Be not angry that you cannot make others as you wish them to be, since you cannot make yourself as you wish to be...

*****************ESP YOU TOM!**********************

44. Anon   
Feb 28 2005 23:54

What makes a students union a students union is not *what* it does, it's *how* it does it. Otherwise, there is no real control over the "what" in the long term.

Mr Arif appears to have ignored students time and time again and is pushing is own agenda. Is it a good or bad agenda? It doesn't matter! It's time he learnt that he can be held accountable and he is there to serve students in the way they see fit, not to spend shedloads of their money (that they had previously decided would be spent on other things) without asking.

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