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Union Hits Back at Humanities Cuts
The Union Council last night discussed plans to submit a new report to Senate, suggesting that humanities subjects should be saved.
what a load of old tosh - college should cut sabbs salaries and use that to pay for the humanities teaching - given the hippie protest last week, i think it'd go down a treat
Maths: ~26K (tax free) per sabb * 5 = 130K - I'm sure you could run a few language courses with that
i think it's farcical that sabbs get paid more than phd students, who actually add value to college in the form of good research and don't spend their days whining about sec. 3 part d subsection i. clause b of the constitution.
name me one reason why sabbs should earn more than say 10k a year.
and don't say "otherwise nobody would do it": potential sabbs are generally unemployable students, they have no other choice
wait, could it be that college decided to scrap languages because the money required had to be spent on another dpew because it was "too stressful" for just one person?
Don't know where the 26k figure comes from (unless you're counting their stipend + their accommodation, but even then you won't get to 26k), as far as I know sabb salaries are meant to be pretty close to PhD stipends...
Regardless, if they were cut to 10k/year, all you'd get would be unemployable students - and you'd notice the difference. For instance I don't think anyone would consider Ashley unemployable!
poll - would you employ Ashley?
how long has he been at IC? he basically can't get a job
Actually, since a group of sabbs (supported by volunteers) got a pay rise for PhD students, sabbs get around the same or less than PhDs, even those on research council studentships. Those PhD students on industrial sponsorships, Wellcome Trust studentships etc take home a fair bit more (I've seen at least ?17k tax free).
I'd love to take home ?26k tax-free for being a sabb next year, but that isn't the case.
got it from the horses mouth my friend...and you're basically saying 20k, which is still over 5k more than a phd stipend, once again, that actually does something for this university.
@ ashley - our wonderful new president: "even" those on research council studentships...bit arrogant don't you think? didn't see any nature papers from you...
@ athulya - spot on, and may i reiterate that it was a no contest election, won by 2:1 against ron, which hardly suggests a mandate
ps i've been here since 1994 and obviously can't get a job
note: Could somebody please clarify exactly how much sabbs get paid?
When I mean clarify, I don't just mean the take home packet - I mean everything - e.g. if you get accommodation paid, you should add that into the figure so we can truly compare to PhD students
@ athulya Thanks for the poll suggestion. Might edit it a bit but the gist is good.
In response to your suggestion that Ashley is unemployable due to having been at Imperial so long, does that mean all PhDs are unemployable as regardless of whether they chose to stay at the same institution they will all have been at University for the same amount of time?
no - if you do a phd it's for two (main) reasons
1. you fancy yourself as an academic - so after your phd if you still like it you go for a postdoc at a different uni
2. you want the title "Dr" - if so, as soon as you finish, you get a well paid job and start getting some real world experience
Lord Jonathan, I don't understand where your ?20k figure came from? I think I calculated it as about ?14.5k after tax and NI (including living-out allowance, in lieu of accomodation) when I was trying to figure it out. I've not seen the contract for next year yet so I don't know for sure.
""even" those on research council studentships...bit arrogant don't you think?"
Not really, those of us on research council studentships get paid less than those on industrial or Wellcome Trust studentships. So even the lowest paid PhD students get paid about the same or more than the sabbs (~?14.5k per year after tax).
even if that were true:
14.5k + 6k living allowance does not equal what phd students get, surely it can't be that hard to get that in your head?
and, reiterating, it's disgusting
?14.5k INCLUDING living-out allowance. That is, ?14.5k total.
Lord Jonathan, you are clearly a fool.
Who the f**k cares what PhD students get? This is NOT the issue in the slightest. A PhD student is a student. A Sabb is an employee. When a PhD student graduates he will not be getting the lousy stipend, but instead a salary that if he is not a complete dimwit, at least matches it.
Consider Hamish Common unemployable? He's only like.. I dunno... a star barrister.
Ashley unemployable?! Gotta be laughing.. Stephen Brown unemployable? Dude get the f**k over yourself and your inferiority complex.
lol inferiority complex? doubt it mate! i've done considerably better for myself then any of those you mentioned, but that's not the point, now is it?
the point was about sabb pay, and the obvious relation you can draw is between it and phd students. sabbs are no more employees than the 2nd year biochemists behind the union bar
hamish common is such a star barrister he sits on union court!
If you are more successful than a load of ex-sabbs that now have good jobs how do you find the time to bicker on Live? Tell us your secret.
it's just that much fun to wind you people up!
Historical position: sabbs were paid net of taxes, a sum equivalent to the EPSRC stipend. They were also provided with free accomodation in Hall - or an equivalent allowance.
02-03: The pay link to the EPSRC stipend was broken and replaced with a salary on the Clerical and Related scale point 7. http://www.union.ic.ac.uk/committees/council/02-03/march/l_exec.htm
03-04: The CRA scale was abolished and the sabbs moved to the new Professional Family scale 1.4 - www.union.ic.ac.uk/meetings/files/paper2-116-1020.pdf
The situation regarding provsion of accomodation has not altered in the last decade.
This is the situation when I left the Union the year before last. Mr Google is your friend.
To calculate the cost of employment of sabbatical officers and their take-home pay is left as an exercise, but obviously the latter will depend on their personal tax circumstances....
Yes Lord Jonathan, you've clearly managed to do much better than all of the above mentioned people. I assume you own a nice country manor out in somewhere nice. Maybe Acton?
If the 2nd year biochemist worked a full time job behind the bar, he'd probably get a salary pretty close to that of a Sabb
dave parry to the rescue! very much appreciated! hope that clarifies everything for the time being...
with regards to the other discussion here, i just had a quick chat with a friend who is a recruitment manager at a large bank in order to escape the hackdom and get a little real-world opinion.
she basically said that having a sabb on your cv can go both ways. if it's clear from your record during the sabbatical that you had a few things that you were very passionate in implementing and more or less got them done, it looks good. you look like someone who is willing to go out of their way to achieve something they think needs to be done (a certain john collins springs to mind!). however, more often than not, she said she doesn't see that in sabbs that have applied to her firm (not only from imperial, so no hostile remarks please). she sees students that either:
a) couldn't find a job
b) thought it would be fun and interesting
d) got so involved that they couldn't find their way out of the union and stayed longer than for their own good
none of those are bad reasons in themselves to do a sabb, but, as she put it, they don't exactly make you attractive to employers. "employers like people who achieve, full stop, in whatever it may be".
i would love to see all sabbs as ambitious go-getters that make the college a different place, and i do think that most people that set out to get involved in the union have that ambition, but something seems to get in the way. call in the constitution, call it hacks, call it endless meetings, bureaucracy, whatever you wish, but that needs change! (not the obama type)
why yes, i do have a manor in acton where i play polo and shoot clay pigeons on the weekends. wish to join?
you're saying? the point was that they're both students, one on leave of absence for a year from studying or "real work", one on leave for a few hours so they can fill up their pockets. i worked full time during the summers when i studied, but i was still a student.
@ dave parry
do you happen to know why the link to the research council pay scale was broken?
Was anything discussed about on the cuts to Music Civ etc. last night? Would have come to defend them if I wasn't in the middle of exams at the moment.
Gavin, I think the answer to that is no. I believe the DPEW wanted to concentrate on battles that were winnable. Although I am more than a bit worried about the loss of Russian. It does make a huge difference to employability for some students in my department.
Lord Jonathan, while your contribution is interesting, humorous and sparking interesting debate I do wonder why you feel the need to respond to yourself, twice! Even I have better things to do. ;)
interesting...the poll was just at 84% saying that sabbs are unemployable, now it's dropped to 40%...zimbabwe right here at live!
Nothing to do with either me or Lawrence and Ashley went to bed over an hour ago. Something about a bad back and pigeons. :)
how did you know he went to bed over an hour ago?
Article updated to include the now non-draft Report to Senate. Apparently it's different. I haven't actually checked. Happy now Hannah? :o)
Because it's my job to know these things...
...and because we were talking on msn and now we're not.
@ Lord Jonathan
The link between the sabbs pay and the EPSRC stipend was broken because the stipend was forecast to rise by 50% over the following 5 years; rather more than the budget was forecast to rise - since College would not accept that the forecast rise should be included in the subvention.
For the original reportage and discussion around here
[Oi! Sam! You're leaving today - make one last random comment somewhere]
Sorry big Dave
How's the boat?
Sorry - forgot about your issues with public transport down there. Boat is fine; about to enter the bandit country of Leeds - I have to get through it before the end of school today.
Congratulations on the Union for standing up for the courses you clearly want and need. And for the protest last week which all languages staff who could physically make it attended.
To the nay-sayers, why can we not have both sabbaticals and language teaching. Rather silly to play one off against the other isn't it? As the employer of the sabbs, the College has to pay them on a comparable level to staff doing similar jobs: that is Equal Pay law. The university staff trade union UCU fights for the better conditions for PhD students too, so if you care about those things, join UCU.
If you really want to vent some spleen, try looking up the Rector's salary and pay rise in the College accounts, and see how many sabbs/language courses you could fund from that.
I leave it as an exercise for the reader: http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/53741696.PDF. p. 66
UCU Rep, Humanities
So what happened at Senate yesterday?
The paper - kinnda won-ish.
Not what I heard. Article following shortly.
it was a big "ish" they accepted that it was financial rather than strategic
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