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Leg transplant for Medics' bar

The comments below are unmoderated submissions by Live! readers. The Editor accepts no liability for their content, nor for any offence caused by them. Any complaints should be directed to the Editor.
Jan 10 2003 13:09

The Reynold's Bar is on its last legs; ICSM plan to give it new legs.

Jan 10 2003 13:32

Ah yes.... Now "Reading between the lines" I make these lightening deductions.

A member of the Medic *FSA* says the medics are boycotting the bar. and then threatens that if they dont get what they want, they will throw their toys out of the pram, and that will be the end of the bar.

Looks to me like it has been organised since they didnt get their own way the first time. An interesting idea.... I wonder who else could apply that where else?

anyway. timing couldnt have been better could it....

Jan 10 2003 13:33

Prince Albert,

I'm disgusted at you and everyone who supports this paper. You are guilty of nothing less than course based discrimination.

You can't have the bar your way. You believe you should be free to do whatever the hell you like. Well I hate to tell you this, but you're not special. There's no reason why you should get to run the bar and reap the profits. What other course at IC has it's own bar?

The reason Charing Cross is failing, is because ICSMSU are being f***ing s***. In my first year, there was a bop once a week, sometimes even twice. Now you're running one every two weeks... and you wonder why the bar fails? If you're not using the bar, why do you have any more right than someone else to run it?

Now i keep my ear close to the ground and i have heard rumours that:

  • you dislike the stewards.
  • you dislike the door staff.

Well I have news for you. Those exact same stewards and door staff operate the same policies at South Ken... with no problems. I think the reason for all the aggravation can be laid at the only group that is not common to both venues - ICSM Students. In my considered opinion, the ICSMSU is run by old, jaded, stuck in their ways people, who can't accept that ICSM is not what it was.

You are no longer st Marys Hospital Medical School. Neither are you Charing Cross and Westminister. You are Imperial College Students. Your course is 2000 people, rather than 600 and you are simply experiencing the problems of organising such a large grouping. Every other department lives with it, so why shouldn't you?

Intergration is also your enemy. With integration brings a wider and more varied base of social interaction. People have more friends, on different course. Maybe your students are finally realising that there is more to life than Medical School, and broadening their horizons and friendships.

I'm sorry about that, it's just life.

So rather than submit a petulant, arrogant and frankly threatening paper to the council of the student body you so hate. Why don't all you retards who run ICSMSU wake up, grow up, and move on.

The sooner you do, the better it will be for the younger students.

To all those medics who aren't going to the Reynold Bar: Chill, relax, go wherever the hell you like. Come to Beit, or Southside or even any pub you like. But don't support the kind of arrogance and discrimination that created such a biased Council paper.

Choose your friends, Choose a social life. Don't choose ICSMSU.

Jan 10 2003 13:41

It's amazing how this paper is getting support from the ICU President now when he didn't support this policy lasy year when Shazia presented it to Exec.

Any cynics out there might think he had something to gain by getting the large medic presence on Union Council to be friends with him now.

Jan 10 2003 13:47

I'd be more impressed with Disgusted's arguments if he'd put a name to his inane rant.

Firstly, let's get one or two things clear. Those of us (and there is only one year of us left) that started at St Mary's, or Charing Cross and Westminster, really don't care any longer, as we've got finals. Talking to some of them (from both CXWMS and SMHMS) we think it's a pity that whilst there is a bar at Charing Cross, near to where most medical students live, nobody wants to use it.

However, there are a number of reasons for this, and most could be addressed quite simply.

1. The Union's "one size fits all" policy of bar management is clearly ridiculous. Just because something works at one bar doesn't mean you can translate it to another. the South Kensington bars work because there is a high density of people living on campus, and the local pubs are all too expensive (and don't take an interest in the student body, in the main).

However, the Reynolds Bar competes (as Prince Albert says) with some very popular drinking establishments along the Fulham Palace Road, which understand the meaning of 'customer service': service with a smile. I went down for a quiet drink with some friends the other night, and was interrogated by a member of the bar staff as to why more medics use the bar (I should have handed him a mirror).

The other reason is that there seems to be a complete disregard for the bar from non-medics. Many IC students live around Hammersmith, but the publicity and marketing of the Charing Cross Bar is indistinguishable from that of the South Kensington Bars (and therefore useless).

So Adam is right - there needs to be a change in direction, and the one suggested seems to be as good as any other. It will be a brave Council that supports it, but for once it will be a Council which reflects the needs and aspirations of a good number of the people it exists to serve.

Jan 10 2003 14:25

Part of this article has been removed to ensure compliance with the ICU staff-student protocol.

6. alex   
Jan 10 2003 15:15

Dear all,

Good to see some lively debate. Shame, however, that ?Disgusted? (cruel parents?) writes such patent bulls***.

Firstly, your ?bop twice a week? line is rubbish ? I don?t know how long you?ve been here, but it must be many more than my five years if you remember a time when bops happened more often than they do now ? in fact, in the summer term, the Medics Union put on more bops than it ever has before, charging little on the door and providing ICU with a windfall which they were happy to offset against the stinking losses at South Ken.

In answer to ?which other course at Imperial has its own bar??, I concur, there are none. However, if Wye CSC has its own bar, why is that any different from ICSM FSA having one? They, by the way, support this paper (so you can be disgusted at them too) because their bar has worked so well for them. They don?t have stewards, yet they don?t have trouble ? one person has been thrown out of their bar in the last four years. They, like the medics are proposing, contribute to the union?s finances, and everyone seems to be happy. Why, when the medics propose a similar scheme, does it all become so emotive? What have we done to offend you?

ICSMSU is not ?run by jaded, stuck in their ways people?. We have new blood every year, representing the whole of the Medical School. We have elections attended by a far greater proportion of us than attend the IC Union elections. We have changed and we have adapted. Far be it from me to say, but it appears that ICSMSU has adapted far better to multi-campus imperial than ICU has done. Yes, we are large, but we remain the only part of the college (except Wye) to have some sort of group pride and identity. We have events organized by students, and successful ones. First year medics take a half-hour tube journey and walk home (which takes a good hour) to go to our events rather than those at Beit Quad. We also have a tradition of looking after one another, rather than being nannied by bouncers or stewards (something which, after five years of ICSMSU bars, has led to more agro this term than ever before).

Also, a bit of news. WE DON?T HATE IC. Will you stop hating us? I remember the mutual antipathy post-merger from my first year. We?ve got over it, so why don?t you? Integration is good, I agree ? I have a wide body of friends within IC whom I care for a great deal. I also, such is life, have a large number of medic friends ? We?re here twice as long as you are, are away from South Ken for five sixths of it and are flung out to places as far as Surrey, Bath and Birmingham for attachments. We spend time sleeping and working night shifts at distant hospitals. We are different ? not ?special?, perhaps, but different, and that?s what should inform the perception of us within Imperial.

And so to the paper. This is no more arrogant and threatening than we are retards. It is, however, discrimination: it is adapting our practices to suit different people. Under this paper, we would still give money to the Union Development Fund (which has never, and shows no sign of ever being spent on medical school campuses), we would still pay for the bar?s depreciation (as, of course we paid for the bar to be refurbished in the first place - ?900,000). It would simply be taking a bar that at present is not working, and give it a new lease of life. We?re not trying to screw Imperial Union, we?re not trying to make a quick buck, we?re not trying to stop non-medics attending the bar (come! for Christ?s sake, come! ? you might leave with a less jaded view of us). We?re just trying to make the bar the focal point that it should be, the place where the young students integrate (that word again) and meet the older ones ? something sadly lacking in SW7. Read the paper, listen to the discussion, make your own minds up. But don?t come armed with the same tired prejudices.

Jan 10 2003 16:37

1) I have no wish to reveal my identity. This is not a requirement for active debate. My name would bring no particular value to my comments.

2) I have no personal enmity towards ICSM Students in general. I have however met the past 3 years of ICSMSU Exec, and all they do is whinge about the "good old days". Those days are gone... move on.

3) I did not say 2 events a week, I mentions "sometimes 2 events a week" - a wednesday bop and friday bop... But certainly a bop most weeks.

4) Alex, my first year was your first year. And I went to events at Mary's, even though I am not a Medic. You may have me beat on the attendance, but I went to enough to both enjoy myself and get the flavour of it.

5) Tom, warra load of c*** you speak. Plastic is not about fights, it's about safety.

Drop a glass in a crowded bar and you could do someone very serious injury. That is the root of the plastic skiff policy, most Imperial students wouldn't dream of glassing someone. Also washing that amount of glass is impracticable with the facilities the ICU Bar has.

Regarding the door staff: They are not paid to think for themselves. They are paid to implement your door policy. If you have any constructive comments about that, go and speak to the licensees. Door policy is a matter of licensing - if you want the bar open late, you must have door staff, and therefore a door policy. Sorry - that's the LAW!

Regarding Stewards: No-one wants to work at Reynolds because of the grief they get. Including Medics who are stewards. Very few medics apply, and you are alienating the ones that have.

6) Students are quite welcome to run a bar. Mary's ran with a student in charge during it's last days. I have no problem with this.

This smacks of ICSMSU not getting what they want and throwing a hissy fit. The article was arrogant and offensive. I'm disgusted at the childishness of it. Grow up.

Work with the bar. The reason it probably lost money is over staffing. If someone in ICSMSU would communicate with ICU Bars and tell them when the big nights were planned, they'd know when to have staff, and when not to, being psychic was never in the Bar Manager's job description.


  • Grow up
  • Move on
  • Co-operate

Otherwise ICSMSU will die.

(That's not a threat, it's what I think you are driving yourselves towards.)

Jan 10 2003 16:45

Damn, i missed a bit...

You didn't pay ?900,000 for it, unless you are speaking as a member of the hospital trusts that paid for it.

ICSMSU gave no money to this project. Lorne McEwan (ICSMSU President 2000-2001)spent a huge amount of time raising money from such sources as the Mary's Trust. I agree, ICU did not fund any of the bar, however ICSMSU didn't put their hands in their pockets either. The money was raised by the ICSMSU president at the time, but you wanted the bar there...

9. alex   
Jan 10 2003 16:50

Hello again,

on the contrary - I think your name would be useful. I'm trying to work out who you are, and it's bugging me, particularly, as one of the 'retards' that run ICSMSU, you say you've met me.

Good to hear that you enjoyed Marys. Personally, I think that CX bar is better, and that the cohesiveness in the medical school is better than ever. In my time, there have been no 'good old days' any more than now.

As for your multi-event ICSMSU thing, I think you may be looking back through rose-tinted specs. It would be fab if you could came to ICSM RAG week, when you'll see five events in five days. Woo!

People do want to work at the Reynolds. Many bar staff I know prefer it, as it has at least some 'bar-etiquette'.

On staffing. I agree that it is a factor in the bar losing money. However, we have always told the bar when we plan a big night. The number of people who actually come is beyond our control.

This paper and article are not ICSMSU 'throwing a hissy-fit'. It is a sensible response to the problems that the bar is facing. Inflammatory responses like yours just replace reason with rhetoric.

As for your summary, ICSMSU is in rude health, as I stated in your article. It won't die. The only moribund thing at the moment is the Reynolds, which is why something needs to be done.

Jan 10 2003 16:54

Alex, I bet a pint at the new bar that our anonymous friend's job depends on the paper not going through xx

11. idris   
Jan 10 2003 16:54

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Someone seems to be a bit hot under the collar, don't they?

I think my credentials as an all-round supporter of ICU are well-documented; when I've seen bits I don't like I have, in the main, tried to change them from within. This policy of constructive engagement has been propogated by our fantastic president and exec this year, with the result that the ICSMSU exec generally have a great working relationship with ICU for the first time I can remember. This paper addresses a problem which is hurting ICU financially and the med school socially.

Talk about the good old days is unadulterated nonsense. Talk about the profitable old days is - unfortunately - all too accurate.

Jan 10 2003 16:56

I said:

"Why don't all you retards who run ICSMSU wake up, grow up, and move on."

I'd like to apologise for that. It was a stupid thing to say, a measure of my frustration if you will.

No-one who studies at IC is "retarded".

I stand by my other comments, but again, I apologise for that one.

Jan 10 2003 16:58

Why, if CX bar is better than Mary's, do you want to change it back to a Mary's style operational policy.

And how can you say cohesiveness is better than ever when, as you rightly point out, people are sent to plenty of further flung places than they used to and there is less integration between these people and the other years of the medical school than there ever has been. I think your view on cohesiveness really has a lot to do with whether you do the vast majority of your placements at CX and the surrounding area or whether you end up stuck out in Ashford or Hillingdon repeatedly.

Jan 10 2003 17:06

I think the building is better at Charing Cross. We've got disco lights that work, so we don't have to go to Maplins for bulbs before bops, we've got a bar that's big enough to fit some people, we've got soundproofing and a late license. That's why it's better. The atmosphere is, however worse - this is what we are trying to change.

The comment on cohesiveness was meant in a more nebulous sense - while people are geographically far apart (and people have been sent to Hillingdon since the year dot), the medical school - ICSM, that is, is not divided by the old Marys/Charing Cross/Westminster thing like it was in the first few years of my time here. That can only be a good thing. And we've got scarves now ;-)

15. Sam   
Jan 10 2003 17:11

Two kinds of scarves i believe Alex ;o)

are they warm?

16. alex   
Jan 10 2003 17:15

deeply. And, if I may say, I think you would look lovely in one. Or why not buy your nearest and dearest one for a late Christmas present...

Jan 10 2003 17:16

I already have one thanks Alex!

Jan 10 2003 17:17

...'cos he bought her a Guilds one instead! Ha!

(So he should really get a Medic one for himself for the irony :-)

19. Sam   
Jan 10 2003 17:17

she bought one for herself yesterday... and i got her a Guilds one for her birthday :oP

It frees up her ICU scarf for me to wear though!

Jan 10 2003 17:19

Yeah, I bought the medic one and I am going to make my other half wear it :-)

No more ICU scarf for you my dear!

21. Sam   
Jan 10 2003 17:21

anyway, after that charming interlude you can all go back to slagging each other off now.

Jan 10 2003 17:25

Erm... quite.

Now, I feel I'm missing something here. Could someone please explain to me: what is a "bop"?

Jan 10 2003 17:28

Dearest Mustafa,

YOU'VE never been to a bop?

It's where people dance, talk, sing (sometimes) and get progressively drunker as the night wears on. Usually quite good for pulling people too.

Jan 10 2003 17:31

Thanks for clearing that up. I've never seen the term being used by ICU Ents (or indeed anyone else on this campus).

Jan 10 2003 17:32

Whilst we are flying Tangent Airways, do you reply to your email Mustafa?

Jan 10 2003 17:34

From: Mustafa Arif

Date: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:33:37 PM Europe/London

To: "Mcginn, Katherine C"

Subject: Re: tut tut!

Oh well, you'll have to transfer to bio-engineering ;-)

On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 05:23 PM, Mcginn, Katherine C wrote:

> Yeah, I like my Guilds scarf and I will wear it daily forever (or at least

> until it gets warm). But now my name is mud at ICSM!


> Quite funny though!


> Kx


Jan 10 2003 17:35

You bastard!


Jan 10 2003 17:38

Towards the end of my Guilds Presidency I made the habit of wearing a University of London tie to College meetings. The looks I got from senior staff were hillarious :-)

Jan 10 2003 17:43

I know, we could have an alternative to mascotry - Regalia Wars.

Have to take photos of the most unlikely (or important) people wearing your regalia at increasingly high-profile events. Perhaps you could persuade Mr Sykes to wear a T-shirt with 'I love Spanner and Bolt' across it to his next meeting with a Government minister/HEFCE/the Queen.

Jan 10 2003 18:32

Problem is that Mustafa wears the same tie to lectures as well. Which is a bit embarrasing for the poor lecturer.

Closed This discussion is closed.

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