As a foreign student what I fail to comprehend is the arbitrary increase in our fees every year with no explanation. Whilst those for home students has been capped, perhaps even next yr. when higher fees are introduced this amount will be capped for a decade considering the level of opposition and general slowness of the government.

The college still continues to make more money out of overseas students then out of home students, considering that there are fewer overseas students than home. In an off-chance that the college makes that extra little bit of money and ends up in profit at the end of the year, students (esp. overseas ones) are ignored with no capping of fees for the next yr.

The financial report for Imperial College is an interesting read, if you have the time. And what did I get this year, new toilets in EE, thanks Dickie.

But surely it is your choice as a foreign student to study at imperial? Everyone knows it is more expensive to study abroad before they decide to do so, you can't really complain now.

Much as the British government does not give Imperial sufficient money it does give it some. Why should you get some of your education at the Brittish tax payers expense? My parents have paid taxes all their working lives, I will do so also - therefore it is fair that some of my eductaion is paid for by those. It is not fair that yours is!

==:

Overseas students pay over the economic cost and subsidise home students.

Seb: Though foreign students might pay more than the average cost of course provision per student, remember that this is necessary if the courses are going to remain viable and therefore exist. Imperial isn't making a profit, and undergraduate eduction as a whole is subsidised by research income (and hence by the UK taxpayer), through funding academics and facilities.

One could also make the argument that it would be immoral for the Government to pay universities the same amount per home student as overseas students have to pay as long as overseas students want UK university places. The government has no obligation to pay for the education of overseas students, and if it can subsidise the cost of educating home (or EU) students by introducing "profitable" overseas students then surely that is its obligation: The money saved can be spent on other important things such as healthcare or transport (or, heaven forbid, not taking it from the taxpayer in the first place).

Siddharth you should be ashamed of yourself. Some of the people who qualify for these bursaries will come from households where the annual income is probably less than what you pay for your education. Comparing the college with a business, non EU students are the customers with British taxpayers being the shareholders. Any profit generated by our customers is more than welcome.

Perhaps, it isn't a good idea to make assumptions on the backgrounds we stem from. My own background would not have allowed me to afford the education that I am now getting, it is with help of such bursaries and scholarships that I study at Imperial, I am lucky.

Nor am I criticising the provision of bursaries to students (would be stupid as I subscribe to some myself), what I am trying to highlight is the business like approach which is taken by, in this case the college to literally "fleece" us at any given opportunity. Yes, I have not contributed to the tax industry in the UK and I agree I should pay higher fees than home students, but there should be a level of decency at which we are charged. How is it possible that another university such as cambridge can charge its overseas students a lower fees than those at Imperial, if you say it's because we are in London, then what about UCL comparing that with IC, where for engineering the fees are still £200 higher at £13900.

What further makes it interesting is when we all acknowledge that the college is being run as a business and I do not think there is absolutely anything wrong with that, then lets gradually reduce the number of home students that are taken in and increase the number of overseas, without compromising standards at any level. Let good education become a service to those who can afford it, whilst still making a profit for the "stakeholders".

Well, I was an overseas student for four years and my fees averaged around 11K year. Two years later, I have earned it back. In this light, let me reverse the question posed by the Daily Mail crew. Why should you NOT pay at a suitable rate (i.e close to what I had to pay) for the education that allows you to attain such a level of income? (most IC alumni do sooner or later, no horses**t about doctors and teachers please) Take a friggin' loan out, stop whining and get a job after Uni. You'll be just fine whatever fees they charge.

"(most IC alumni do sooner or later, no horses**t about doctors and teachers please)"

Unfortunately that very much *is* the point. Not all IC alumni will and there's no reason why they necessarily should or would be contributing more to society in a higher paid job. If you don't *get* this then you're missing a big part of the picture and I suppose you will never understand why publiclly funded education is important. I am sorry for you.

Indeed some 25% or so of Imperial's students will be doctors, will they not.

The percentage of people that go into "highly paid" work and stay in that vocation is actually quite low.

Sid, personally I wouldn't compare a UCL degree with an Imperial degree. There's a reason why Imperial is the only London university I considered. The extra £200 might be well worth it!

I'm interested to hear what involvement (if any) ICU had in drafting the Access Agreement.

Something tells me they may not have managed to get their fingers into that very important pie.

I don't believe that the agreement is set in stone yet. Obvioulsy the £4000 headline figure will stay but I guess all the finer points can still be debated.

Make your views known now!

Personally I think that £4000, on top of a loan of £5000 and a grant of £2700 is an awful lot - surely it could be done on a yearly basis. i.e. if you get the bursary you have to stay on at least a 2:1 to keep it.

Any comments?

Why would I bother? It's not like I'm ever going to get one of these.

The thing about being assessed by your county is that if you are from somewhere where almost everyone is poor/unemployed (for example Wales) then you get the minimum loan however much your parents earn because they are earning something and therefore comparatively rich.

I'd had been buggered if they'd brought in top up fees before I started at Imperial because there is no way I could have asked my parents for an extra £3000 a year and my county won't give me any more than the minimum loan.

I don't know how many of your guys know about this: The tuition fees for international students are 0 in France and Germany. I would consider those countries to be as developed as UK. France has a pool of good technical universities (Grande Ecoles like Ecole Polytechnique and ENST) with the quality of students much higher than the students who study technology in the UK (believe me I have interacted with the students there). Some might argue how I define quality ... a the quality of a technical student should be determined by his technical knowledge I guess and not by his job that he got as a trader who earns a million a day.

Swiss Universities like EPFL and ETH Zurich are ranked over Imperial in almost all global rankings and how much is the tuition fee there for international students? It's around 1000 euros I guess, which is peanuts compared to what international students pay here. People pay tax in those countries as well and a bulk of it is meant for education. Moreover the services provided by the government for day-to-day life is better as well.

Maybe it's not the education that your government is spending money on ... it might be some thing else. How about the War on Iraq? And the military base that you have in Greek Cyprus? It needs money to be so active in the Internation Political scene. You have to compromise on various aspects like education ... You might argue that France also maintains army in various parts of the world ... but not at the expense of education. I am sure that the whole country will be on "STRIKE" if they do that.

...

You perhaps make a good point - so why arent you studying there? In other countries the way they run further education is so different - its not possible to compare - the economies are totally different... In fact, the way they run education in other countries full stop is a enough to see that comparisons are hard to make. In France for example, I believe that you have to purchase all your textbooks yourself whilst in compulsory education (eg primary and secondary). Even then though, you have different sorts of schools (the Lycee for example and the technical colleges) and so they dont have this "50% must go to uni" goal. (I think that in general it is those who go to the lycee's who are those who are expected to go to uni) In Finland I believe that accomodation and tutition fees etc for a home student is something like 50Euro, perhaps more now (feel free to correct me on this if anyone knows for sure, i vaguely remember this being said to me.)

It's so hard to draw comparisons; perhaps the real cost of education is a better way to draw the comparison, and perhaps what you get out of it in the end in terms of jon prospects et al. should be taken into account as well before anyone jumps to conclusions.

I'd like to say too that its everyone's own choice to study in the UK if they want to - you knew how much it would cost before you came. What I resent is that less home students can get education in our own country from top universities becuase we dont generate enough income!

"I'd like to say too that its everyone's own choice to study in the UK if they want to - you knew how much it would cost before you came. What I resent is that less home students can get education in our own country from top universities becuase we dont generate enough income!"

Fewer home students are able to get into imperial because the overseas students are prepared to pay. Why are (arguably better) French or German Unis then charging peanuts for excellent overseas degrees? I think you'll find we only have ourselves to blame.

We painted the map pink, spread the language to all and sundry to the point where everyone considers the language we speak as important as the degrees Imperial offers (if not more important).

THe ERASMUS figures tell all. THe UK is heavily oversubscribed by foreign students, not because we're cheap, or a nice place to be, but because we're european and speak English.

Other euro countires are undersubscribed by UK students because UK students are too blinkered to appreciate the benefits of learning another langauge, inspite of the generous financial benefits of taking an ERASMUS year (home tuition fees waived, lower costs of living, payment for research undertaken etc). I don't know the international figures, but I suspect, for example, that more Chinese students come to study here than the reciprocal.

THe point is, once again the UK is sitting on its a**e over education, because we have a circumstantial competitive advantage (our language). I'd advise any UK student about to start to seriously consider other euro options, as the degree they'll get will be just as good at a fraction of the cost. Plus they already can speak English, so will be in constant demand as interpreter/translator. As and when the global model we curently follow falters or another language rises to dominate international business, the picture will change. In the short term, the gov't will continue spending money on privatisation, securing foreign natural resources and maintaining a 'strong position' on the 'world stage', as it is in its pure economic/political interests to do so. Sod your degrees!!!!

Anyone for Shanghai?

Tom: I don't think Mandarin Lvl1 would be enough :)

"Why are (arguably better) French or German Unis then charging peanuts for excellent overseas degrees?"

I would argue that at present the top UK institutions are streets ahead of their European counterparts. Whilst I can't pass judgement on whether or not the average UK university is any better than the average German university, the UK elite consistantly outshines our European rivals.

Evidence for this stems from league tables published around the world (http://www.ic.ac.uk/P637.htm) and the sheer popularity of UK degrees amongst international students.

...which was largely based on publications in English language journals. I don't think our high scores necessarily exclusively to our brilliance but are heavily influenced by the more arbitary factor of which language we speak.

looking at your ref John I see that the first link for which a subscription is not required throws up the top 100 Unis as compiled by a Chinese University group in Shanghai!! (puts us at 23rd place)

Most of the Unis cited are situated in English speaking countries. There's a strong correlation.

very amusing.

The Chinese survey you mentioned certainly seems to have created quite a stir across the world! Even the French have taken notice of it (Although they understandably weren't terribly happy - see http://www.figaroetudiant.com/recherche_etudiante/20040624.FIG0361.html )

I have spent the last half an hour scanning the internet for league tables from non english speaking sources and the Shanghai source is the only one I've found so far. All the francophone discussion threads and articles I found cited league tables developed in Anglophone countries or, in one case, China.

I'm sure someone out there with superior internet searching skills can do better - please let me know if you find anything!

At the cost of sounding somewhat "colonial", english - the language has world prominence based on the world domination that the empire had, subsequently the proliferation of the language has resulted in anyone or anything "english" to be considered educated and something that should be emulated. It is not surprising that most far-eastern sources consider universities in UK ahead of those in the less colonially dominant european nations.

But considering that increasing numbers of students are going to the US, partly because there is financial support available for overseas students there and the degrees are being rated better, or atleast the job prospects are better in the US. Could it be that British Universities are living on past fame?

"I would argue that at present the top UK institutions are streets ahead of their European counterparts."

A point to note: even with the English bias (as pointed out by several others), ETH Zurich is above Imperial in the most of the rankings ... it might be the best technical institute in Europe. If the "English bias" was not there, then it might rank over Cambridge in some basic sciences. Don't forget ETH speaks German and German is only spoken in Germany and a part of Switzerland officially (I think!). So in terms of staff, it is very German and so are the projects and research ... which might be a major problem in attracting international research funds (which subsidise the teaching costs).

So here goes an example of a "socialist" University, which hasn't collapsed yet even though it has factors working againt it.

The "English bias" is a major issue to be honest. To give you a very small example say in India, people speak English ... and we are talking about a billion people and a fair share of the world research community. You can take the example and think about any other Asian country as well. The first foreign language is always English if it is not the main language in research communities all over the world. And last but not the least the Times Higher Education Supplement ranking were based on citations ... if you cannot read a paper, you cannot cite it either.

For the Chinese rankings, they took into account some "stupid" factors like number of publications in Science and Nature maganizes, which biased the rankings towards Scince based Universities. LSE was ranked beyond 50 in that for that reason.

In the end, I would like to say it is hard to rank Univerisites especially across borders. International ranking systems attarct the students to higher ranked Universities ... so they will try to come to Imperial. But just to be "fair" in all sense of the word, we cannot afford to subsidise the tuition fees of others (local and EU students). It is fair that an international student pays what he/she is getting. But this "involuntary charity" imposed on the international students cannot be justified by anything other than saying "So if you knew all this why did you come to this country and to Imperial to study?"

Given that it is so hard to rank Unis across borders, suffice to say that Imperial must be slipping if:

it mounts solar panels to power road signs pointing at... buildings, and not the sky, and

it centralises and reduces bike parking facilities when all statistics show that cycling is enjoying unprecedented growth in the last three years, and

<quote from COllege staff member>

"to comply with Kyoto requirements there is a 900kW chiller being installed outside your office. THis is why the grassy area has been removed"

</quote>

and then there's the juicy quote from the rector somewhere about the maths department at Luton or something????