please mind the gap (in my wallet)

I just feel sorry for the tourists/visitors who have to cough up 4 quid for a single. That's absurd.

Good news for Oyster users?

Bus fares up 30% = good news?

wat a load of c**p.. it suks!!

hee hee

ken livingston is a w***er...

Why should adults have their fares increased to cover the free kids fares...Ken Livingstone is not a publically elected figure and should therefore not have to powers to dictate these decisions!

Ken Livingstone is an elected figure...

I agree with your other point though. In the suburb where my parents live it's quite common to see kids going 1 stop on the bus where they would previously have walked for 2 minutes ... often vandalising it, shouting, swearing and trying to intimidate passengers at the same time.

No wonder kids are so unhealthy and obese, they go everywhere by bus these days. Well done Ken, you've ruined the health of children and turned busses into standing room only cattle carts for the rest of us. And we get to pay for it all!

Why does everyone always start picking on young people when things go wrong? Why are you so bitter?

I think this says alot about the reasons why this country is the way it is - maybe if adults start respecting kids then they might make a better future for everybody where we don't have these ridiculous fare rises each year.

Kids don't work so why should they pay bus fares?

The Government has enough money not to have these absurd fares but chooses instead to spend it on defence - what use is that when most adults in this country do not respect the children that could lead them to a better future?

Beth - the problem is that children have parents who could pay the bus fares. Children also don't have to pay for their schooling.

At the same time, students are forced to pay full fares for their travel around London to study, on top of extortionate rent and £3,000 a year tuition fees. There is a 30% discount on weekly or longer travelcards for students, however that often doesn't help. Students at Imperial College are often not able to work much during term time due to the high workload.

Using a bike is an attractive option, except for the likelihood of getting squashed on the A4.

Can visitors/tourists get an Oyster Card?

We have to travel to see a sick relative!

Southern Railway increase cheap day return from Brighton £0.50 ( over 100 miles) London Underground £2.00 return distance of approx 5 miles ( zone 1)

I completely disagree with the new increase to the fares its like draining all your money away! Its not fare for the others who cant afford this and bloody two quid for just a single fare on a bus what a joke! AND KIDS THESE DAYS ARE SO DISRESPECTFUL TO PEOPLE so something has to be done about this right away!

Ah, but the bus is only £2 in cash, it's half that on Oyster - the aim is to speed boarding and make the buses more reliable

David - TfL offer a visitors travelcard which can be bought from overseas. If you're travelling within the country, you can add a one day Travelcard to your paper ticket, or get a Prepay Oystercard from a tube station on arrival. There is a £3 refundable deposit, but you may as well keep the card with you for next time you visit.

Overseas/visitors: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2007/visitors.asp

Ashley - Not all children have parents, and not all children have parents that can afford travel fares - my mum really struggled when me and my siblings were growing up and I know it would've helped her out by not having to give us money to travel.

I definitely agree that students should also have their travel fares waivered, I am no longer a student but certainly needed help with travel when I was studying, but I think you're missing my point - why do so many adults feel it's ok to pick on young people when things go wrong for them? The Government has enough money to give themselves pay rises and spends riduculous amounts on 'defence' - I don't think this is a healthy example to set for young people - it's hard enough to be a child in this present social and political climate so give them a break!

One further point - this undemocratic forcing of Oyster cards on people is despicable. Again, it is the poorest people who are penalised and have their rights squashed by a Government who is only concerned with keeping control & exerting their power - not with respecting people.

Beth - The original point I was making about the children in the area where my parents live is that a lot of them are out of control and now use buses when it would be healthier for them to walk for a couple of minutes. They also have iPods, the latest mobile phones and the latest "trendy" clothes - but apparently cannot pay for their own travel.

There was already a scheme in place where children would receive subsidised bus travel if their school was outside walking distance (1.5 miles or so). I have no objection to extending free bus travel to those children who really need it, but that's certainly not the majority in the area I was talking about.

On what basis do you claim that forcing Oyster cards onto people affects the poorest? The poorest can get Oyster cards too.

Ashley - Are you really concerned about the health of those children... or do you just want a quieter bus ride? Or is it something you heard in a newspaper and it seems like the right thing to say? I don't pretend that it doesn't sometimes do my head in when there's kids shouting on the bus, etc but I'd rather them be like that than silent and without a spirit in them - it is something which too many adults have lost.

I also think there are too many adults in this country who want children to be just like them - numb. This means keeping quiet and following rules. And I think alot of the time, the adults who complain the most about noisy kids are the ones who wish the most that it was THEM who could stand up and make a row. If more energy was put into encouraging young people, by adults, to respect themselves and others - AND BEING LED BY EXAMPLE, in a true sense, i.e not be bullied or ground down by a system that ultimately does not respect them - then I predict that some of the more extreme rowdiness wouldn't happen.

One other thing - have you ever been on a bus with drunken and lairy adults? I think you'll agree that it's very unpleasant & obnoxious situation.

Children don't get out of control unless adults are out of control, even if it isn't necessarily obvious to other adults that this is the case - children sense EVERYTHING. You mention the fact that they have the latest gadgets but again I think if, as a nation, children were not encouraged to value those things and were instead pushed to invest in understanding themselves through the Arts and through real human emotions instead of capitalistic notions of what it is to be human, then everything would be better.

The poorest HAVE to have Oyster cards which is an infringement on their privacy - every movement is recorded and I think it's sinister. The Government is trying to control every aspect of our lives. I object to the fact that so many people are being forced to use Oyster, and I am suspicious about the motives of the authorities for this. I do not think this is an unjustified concern.

Beth - I fully agree with your point about drunken adults on the bus, that's also not a pleasant experience. But at the same time, they do pay to be there...

My experience of kids on the bus is genuine, not something I've read in the papers. I used to travel a lot on buses in the centre of london and in the suburbs. My observation was that as soon as the free passes started, I noticed more school children taking the bus one or two stops. Some of them were absolutely (loud, but not causing any problems), but already looking a little overweight. However, in one particular incident a group of 6 "children" walked into the middle of the road to stop the bus just after a bus stop, refused to move until they got on, got on for free, then opened the doors while the bus was moving to jump off just before the next stop. They'd endangered themselves and others for the sake of not walking 200m, which they travelled on the bus for free.

I also agree with your point that children don't get out of control unless adults are out of control. We have a serious problem with the values we teach our children. I only hope that the scheme to remove free bus passes from children who misbehave is successful. That was a brilliant idea if it can be made to work.

Oyster cards - everyone has to have them because they're cheaper to manage and not as prone to fraud (people collecting your second-hand travelcard when you leave the station, then selling it on).

It may track all your journeys, but there is no requirement to register the card, it just makes sense to do so. There is very little difference here to a supermarket loyalty card - they know what you buy and give you vouchers for money off shopping. They would still know that *someone* bought the items if you didn't have the loyalty card, just not who it was. Do you believe supermarket loyalty cards also discriminate against the poor, or is it ok because its a big business and not a government organisation?

Who do you trust more, a (quasi-)democratically elected government, or Tesco?

Ashley

I am in agreement with you about kids today and think the points that you have made are very valid. Until they respect adult sand others kids around them I don't think it will change. This is a lot to do with the parents who do not instill a sense of responsiblity in them and at times are as bad as the kids and a lot to do with the government watering down the system so much that kids have no reason to respect "authority".

However, I also agree with Beth regarding the Oyster cards and really do not think they can be compared to loyalty cards. If you do not have an Oyster card you MUST pay significantly more to travel. If you do not have a loyalty card you do not "benefit" from the "freebies" but you are under no requirement to pay more for what you do buy. I would not have an Oyster card if it were not for mine being bought for me by a friend who was sick of waiting for me to pay for a ticket on the few trips I make by tube! I do not think that TFL should be forcing people economically into the system especially a system that tracks the user.

Lastly, in all honestly I would trust Tesco 100 times more than I would ever trust Livingstone, Blair and his cronies that has reduced this country to the state it is currently in (including reducing the values held by the kids that you were originally talking about). Not that I can see much changing...

Don't register the card and they can't track your journies. Better still, get two cards, neither registered and use them alternately (e.g. one to travel out, one to travel back).

On the buses, use a saver ticket instead. A book of 6 saver tickets costs £6, the same per ticket as the Oyster fare.

I'm with Ashley on the point that Oyster Cards are a good thing.

Unfortunately many Brits seem resistant to change and want everything just the way it was before - this includes waiting at tube stations in long queues whilst heaps of tourists in front try and work out that Leicester Square to Covent Garden is a Zone 1 journey and thus they need to work out how to put £4 into the machine.

Cash benefits and price hikes are pretty much the only way to effect change in a short space of time - money does drive the world after all; amid all the outcry I'm sure nobody can deny the benefits the Oyster system carries in cutting waiting time and congestion at ticket barriers, as well as reducing the risk of fraud. This is the primary purpose the Oyster Card serves, not to go further on the 'Nanny State' idea and track your every movement - the government and Livingstone probably have better things to do than working out that xx left their home to go over to some seedy shop in zone 6.

As for poor families being disadvantaged by Oyster Cards, I fail to see the basis for this point. An Oyster card costs £3 which is refundable and transport provides instant savings - this figure surely cannot be seriously beyond the reach of most tourists or the very hardup - I would have thought that even with basic Income Support of say £60/week one can probably find the £3 to spend somehow!

I may be wrong on this, but I see plenty of 'less well off' looking people come on the bus and flash bus passes instead of touching in on Oyster Cards. This presumably is either a free travel card or a heavily subsidised pass. Now I don't know whether these are provided to 'key' workers or to the poorer public but I do think that there must be schemes put in place by local authorities to help the poor out with things like transport - lots of community transport minibuses everywhere for example!

I'm not aware of any travel benefits/discounts for key workers... Come September, if I work in London I believe I'll have to pay full fare.

Well, the Tories want to scrap the free travel and the NUS oppose it:

http://www.nusonline.co.uk/news/273838.aspx

"Reported youth crime on buses has shot up by 55% since the introduction of free bus travel for under 16-year-olds."

"There were 5,701 reports in the year since the scheme went live in September 2005 compared with 3,666 in the previous year, official figures show."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6700567.stm

Nice.

Are you trying to prove a point Ashley?

;o)

Yes :)

I am really excited about the discount when one is in receipt of income support.

I am not too excited that young people/children are being critisised by adults because of their free transport. (please grow up). Not all young people are out of control, so does that mean the innocent has to suffer?

You realise that the reduction for people on income support comes at the expense of the people of Venezuela, where Ken has a done a deal with their effective dictator Hugo Chavez?

Two dictators working together...

Anyone who thinks all this free travel isn't just a ploy for Ken to win the election next year is a fool. It isn't sustainable in the long term for the people in London who actually contribute to the economy to continue subsidising transport for those who do not. That cheap oil from Venezuela will disappear at some point, which will mean more price hikes to pay for the subsidy.

I also don't understand how Ken can give people on income support a discount on single journeys (who already receive money from the government to pay for things like transport), yet not offer the same deal to students. Students receive no direct money from the government and are expected to actually pay taxes at some point, rather than continuing to extract money from the government.

Children/young people are so-called awful because adults are awful. They cuss, spit, and have the morals of a sewer rat. Ladettes want to be lads who refuse to grow up and be responsible just look at the people who are admired, Ricky Gervais, Jonathan Ross, Amy Winehouse, The Apprentice wannabees, Gordon Ramsey the sad list goes on and on and on.

Look in the mirror adults and then we can sort out the youth!! Why not lay on school buses like the USA?

Seems you don't want subsidised transport for "people who don't contribute to the economy" (what a callous way of describing people who are ill, disabled or spend their lives looking after someone else)- but you would be happy if students got it I suppose?

I don't contribute to the economy, and I did actually recieve money directly from the government to the tune of £2765 this year for my course, as well as all my EMA through school. I am fit and able to work, and to cycle to college if I chose. I reckon a disabled person or a carer deserves subsidised transport a whole lot more than I do.

Anyway, if you don't work then discounts on Travelcards aren't going to be much use to you, whereas students are much more likely to need them every day.