10% seems alarmingly low, but perhaps if they spent less time racing around the countryside in their environmentally unfriendly 4x4s they might have done better...

Actually this drop in grades coincides with the lowest yet number of actual agrics, and a lot more business students. Because... Agrics know Wye, and choose to go there, because it has a good reputation in that field. Some business students from the local area or rural backgrounds may also do so, but there are far more for whom Wye would not have been a first choice, many coming through clearing, and many wanting to go to Imperial and never really getting over it that they weren't in London. Of course there are exceptions, to be found in that All of which everyone in Wye told Imperial when they decided that the Business course was the one to keep.

So more to do with time spent racing up to London in environmentally unfriendly sports cars... but even more to do with Imperial running Wye down in what they think is the least noticeable way, but is unfortunately also the messiest, i.e. piecemeal, a slow lingering death, with a lot of students suffering along the way.

If they wanted "good" degrees, maybe they shouldn't have gone to Wye

I've been asked to pass on some contact details if people would like to lodge appeals or are seeking advice.

The Union's student adviser, Nigel Cooke, is available to discuss degree results and appeals with any concerned students:

Nigel Cooke

Student adviser

Tel:020 7594 8067

E-mail:advice@imperial.ac.uk

For those seeking a response from higher up in College, outside the appeals route, ICU President John Collins is now back in the office (with a nice sling) and can be contacted on president@imperial.ac.uk.

I am a second year student at Wye. I have been utterly appalled by the educational standards and facilities that I have encountered whilst studying here. I am an international student and as such my parents are spending vast sums of money on what was supposed to be a world-class education. Instead, I, and they, feel that this money has been wasted and I would have been far better applying to an 'inferior' university where at least I would have had acceptable teaching and support. If only there were a forum for us to make our concerns known, things might change. However, every time we try and make our voice heard we are firmly rebutted and nothing changes. I make this post anonymously for fear of reprisals that will affect my own degree - our lecturers are notorious for their subjectivity, unfair marking and treatment. I have only compassion for the vast majority of third years who have been devastated by their degree marks, and am extremely worried that the same factors will condemn me. I only wish that this were hyperbole. And to those ignorant enough to assert their ridiculous generalisations (we are all rich kids who spend more time in 4x4's than we do studying) on myself and my fellow disadvantaged students at Wye, I suggest you re-assess your perceptions. I pray that something comes of this news article and that things do change, if only this could make it into the mainstream media where public opinion can really be affected... That would force Imperial to do something about this farce of a university campus.

The perception of you all being rich kids who spend most of your time driving around in 4x4s probably comes from your elected student representatives, who spend time doing exactly that.

What are WCUS - those same elected representatives - doing to help you?

At many times during my time at Wye, I felt that the more I tried the more difficult it became for me. At many occasions during my time at Wye I felt hindered by the lack of motivation of certain staff members to deal with my concerns and also by the general laid back work ethic on the campus, for example the teaching office hours. As it was so difficult to receive a response from lecturers, one would expect the teaching office to be open at least until 5pm to deal with students’ concerns.

Despite constant reminders, my concerns were delayed month after month until forgotten.

Throughout the whole course, I found it very hard to contact lecturers and receive any kind of extra information that I required. As a result, I had no choice but to give up chasing lecturers. This was very demoralising after having started with an enthusiastic approach to the course. The feeling of fighting a losing battle made it difficult for me to improve further despite my eagerness to do well.

Another problem I encountered was receiving conflicting information from different members of staff. Also, I found the way the course was structured in the final year made the period prior to exams very busy with coursework, presentations and revision, while the rest of the year was relatively free.

I’m sure I speak on behalf of many students at the Wye Campus when I say that we are all bright young people with good educational backgrounds, we enrolled in one of the countries top universities all of us with great dreams and aspirations. Unfortunately this has been shattered due to a poorly run campus where the standard of teaching has been less that satisfactory and resources have been limited to say the least. (please refer to the dossier for examples) Our degree classifications are not a true reflection of our abilities, and I would like to know why.

Indeed I did want a "good" degree that is why I applied to Imperial College, the third best university in the country. Albeit I applied to the Wye Campus as that is where my chosen course is run, which just so happened to be my first choice, and I was well aware that I would be studying outside London. I realise now that i would have been better off elsewhere as the Wye Campus is so segregated from the main London Campus that it was unrealistic to believe my education and experience would have been on par.

Maybe only 10% of the students ACTUALLY DESERVED 'Good degrees'?!

Wye campus was my first choice and at the time of my application i believed i would recieve the same level of education as those at other top universities, i realise now that i may have been better off at a lower ranked uni where i may have gained a fuller education with better facilities (the library opening hours are very limited compared to most other unis whose are open 24hours). Also 2 of our courses in the final year were crammed into a period of 4 weeks as many a tutors needed to work elsewhere due to a great reduction in teachin hours, other tutors also taught only for one solid day a week making it difficult for both them and us students as there were not easily available although i realise that this was not their own fault but the fault of those at South Ken.

Post removed pending legal advice, 05/07/2007 19:08

Im a third year student at wye. Although I got the 2,1 I needed, I was astonished by the degree structure in the third year. With many new lecturers coming in from Kent University, most lecturers hardly knew the exam structure. Coursework was given all at the same time, there was no coordination or communication between lecturers. I just think alot of us got hard done by.

I got straight As for my A-Levels, went to a proper English boarding school, and applied to Imperial College Wye Campus. I believe it's not my fault of being rich and it would be rather nice if people can stop picking on the ones who drives 4x4s.

With regards to my education at Wye, it is particularly true that the lecturers are not helping, especially the Economics lecturer C. He thinks he is the King of Wye Campus and can give out a 10% for essays simply because he doesn't like the writing styles. Him, on the other hand, commented on many essays saying 'you should refer to the textbook', i.e. just copy from your textbook.

Corporate Strategy is another disaster. It's again a textbook based subject. Students don't get the chance to express their views with the topics, and indeed, the lecturer tells you to follow the textbook.

It is particularly amazing that 1 lecturer can teach so many different subjects, i.e. Human Resources Management, Marketing, Environmental Management. What a specialist!

Overall, for the 35,000 pounds (overseas rate) that I have paid to Imperial, what I get is bad education, and a 3rd degree.

P.S. I am a hard working student.

I believe there is not enough time for most lecturers to attend to the needs of all students. It is not unusual to wait two months for a reply to an email. This has caused me a lot of anxiety and chasing up right up to the day before the examinations.

I believe many struggled to deal with the course due to problems such as waiting for four months to see a lecturer despite sending an email every week, or finding the course notes do not match with the recommended reading materials.

Another example of lecturers not allocating any time to students is the fact that I waited a full year to see a copy of my previous year's exam papers. I was promised these papers so that I could learn from my mistakes and improve my exam technique. However, my requests were repeatedly ignored. This is one example of the failings of the Wye campus.

I will never forget that the Teaching Office keep losing students' courseworks!!!

I am upset as well. Lecturers refuse to help and I worked so hard, i.e. more than 40 hours self-study time, but I only achieved a 2.2? I am a straight-A students for A-Levels too!!

Removed pending legal advice, 05/07/2007 19:08

However, we all 'deserve' a higher degree classification because we taught ourselves the course completely, received a low standard of teaching and attention and were left to our own devices. One would not expect this from a top 3 institution.

Totally agree. WE TAUGHT OURSELVES FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS. Lecturers were just reading out the textbooks, this especially apply to Environmental Politics, Economics, Strategy and Human Resource Management!

Parts removed pending legal advice, 05/07/2007 19:10

I can't believe that we were set no work in the first term but then in the two weeks prior to our examinations we had no less than six assignments (both presentations and written coursework) to submit! Ridiculous!!

sour grapes

When I first arrived in Wye, I thought what a fantastic opportunity; I’m at a world renowned university, in the countryside, with few distractions and plenty of time to work hard and graduate with a high class degree. I was completely motivated, I started the year with full enthusiasm to do well. However, I was utterly appalled at the teaching methods and so-called work ethic of the university, Imperial Wye definitely did not live up to the high standards I expected.

My initial complaint is how the courseworks were distributed, having 8 subjects to plough through a year, it didn’t help that lecturers all decided to give coursework at the same time instead of spreading them out through out the year. The course guide which was supposed to "guide" us and prepare us with the expected work was never fulfilled with a number of courseworks that were supposed to be set in the first and second term being left until the final term, when in retrospect we should have been revising. In my first and second year this did not perturb me so much as my fellow students, but when the same pattern repeated itself in my final year with 5 presentations and courseworks being handed in a week before my finals I was furious.

What’s more, it is ridiculous to think that our exams are not spread out, all of my friends studying at good universities in London such as Imperial, LSE and Kings College all find their end of year exams spread out over a month, with only 3 or 4 exams a year, and universities which do teach numerous subjects, such as the Business degree at City University, distribute half the number of modules in January, with the remaining half at the end of the year which makes sense. No matter how brilliant your memory is you will still find yourself cramming when you have 7 modules to sit at the end of the year.

Other complaints in addition to this, include that a number of my courseworks were never returned to me, any student with a good revision plan needs their coursework back in order to assess how well they did in order to revise to a higher standard the next time, what’s more it demonstrates what the teacher would have expected of you and feedback on how you could have done better. Still to this day I have at least 6 or 7 courseworks outstanding from accumulation of my first, second and third year, which is astonishing if you ask me, as well as being unheard of at any other university.

What infuriates me most is the lack of communication between the tutors and students. Despite sending a number of emails throughout the three years studying at Imperials Wye Campus, If I was lucky enough to receive a response, it would normally be a rejection to an appointment or the rehearsed response "can you contact me at a later time in the week, I have a meeting" knowing very well they did not!

Overall, the facilities were dire, the library needed to be open for longer hours and maybe just maybe own the books we study!! And studying without guidelines due to the new teachers and change in the course could have been made easier if the teachers had written sampler paper or guided us on what to expect, but that would be asking the teachers to get off their a**es! I think were pushing it a little don’t you?

if only a small amount of people went to A's lectures, s/he would be on this high horse and say outrageous comments to the students there (one being myself) such as:

"dont worry i know who you all are, i know you always come to my lectures and you will be the ones that do well and the rest will not"

How subjective and generally unprofessional do you wan to be??? And i actually can get statements from lower year students where A has actually said that s/he has such a disdain for the year above (3rd year, our year) now again is s/he losing all grasp of professionalism or is s/he just so angry her true colours are actually showing? B will not even be mentioned, i have never experienced a teacher who has got so much theory wrong in class, ruining our train of thought and s/he also forgot to give us an assignment which s/he bang on the schedule a week before exams when s/he actually remembered to set it. what a joke.

Justice is the way and if the media cannot bring this to light, we can accumulate contacts of people even higher than imperial to really bring this to light. it is now not only about the degree, it is the principle.

The third year course material for applied business management has changed significantly for many subjects, no specimen papers were given out. The summer examination was the first time students saw the layout of the exam let alone the style of questions.

Those on the equine course at the wye campus were given specific details as to what their exam would include, i.e they were handed their 2.1's on a silver platter

I arrived an enthusiastic, hard working student with great ambition and many goals.

Wye stole that from me.

Be warned: there are only 6 unique computers posting as Wye students/graduates above, not the 18 different people that appear to be posting.

They could be different people living with each other, or it could be the same person posting under different names.

If you are posting under different names, please pick one and stick to it.

• most of our courses were brand new but yet NO sample papers were made available or prepared. we were just told to learn everything. right so how exactly am i meant to learn a 500 page HRM book or a 600 page Financial Management Book? i am not superman. nobody is.
• we had to endure the boasts of the agricultural 'horse' students who boasted that they were actually told what would be on the exam, these lecturers obviously realised that the course material expected to be learned on top of constant courseworks and on top of a 10000 word dissertation and on top of teacher absences was just too much so actually did the right thing and gave the students a helping hand.
• B...Parts removed pending legal advice, 05/07/2007 19:10 he never once responded to an email i sent him, not once in three years, didnt explain properly how to create a Decision Support System (i know i did it a A Level) and then barraged students who got their ones a bit wrong.

i will continually update this page when i remember as my brain is actually inundated with problems that i need a break to channel them all, or perhaps write them down, but then again does anyone have a scroll somewhere comparable to that the bible was originally written on as that is the length of paper i would need.

deserved grades?

When large proportions of the student year are made up from clearing and special admission cases, meaning that these students achieved below par a-levels. Is it not surprising the the standard of degrees was so poor?

In todays blame culture it is so easy to blame the lecturers when in fact, it is the admissions officers fault for letting below par students enter a course out of their depth.

</b>in response to the editor i am here with many imperial friends compiling a dossier, these friends choose to use one of my email addresses to send as its quicker and less potentially incriminating <b>

in response to number 30. since when did clearing necessarily mean below par? ignorant

There are many legitimate concerns here, but a lot of the posts are complaining about things that those on degrees in South Ken have to put up with too.

Coursework bunching and making very busy weeks is all too common, for new courses sample exams aren't available and some lecturers aren't that great.

In terms of exams, in South Ken a number of courses cram 10 exams into 2 weeks, with others having exams spread out over a month.

The mention of bias to certain students by members of staff is the most alarming issue here.

No.29 & 30 was Ivan.

I am a straight As A-level student, and studying business at the third best university in the UK came as a natural choice for me. However, I was quickly disillusioned with the standards of education, degree structure and lecturers commitment at Wye. Looking back, Wye looks like a bad business plan for Imperial, and when the local council rejected their billion pound investment for a world class agricultural research facility they decided to cut their losses and run.

In a nutshell:

1 we had no personal student follow-up whatsoever, our personal tutors changed every year (I started with Dr Dorward, then a few months later got switched to Dr Berkeley Hill because the former left, then got Dr Davidova in my 2nd year, etc). Other universities like Cambridge or King's get actual tutorial classes with some follow up of the student

2 I really did not feel most lecturers were even remotely interested in the students, and I could write for days about certain behaviour with myself and fellow students that shows a complete lack of professionalism

3 the courses shows no coherence year on year, with some modules being randomly scrapped out, renamed, replaced with others, etc

4 other universities get some of their exams in January and other in June, in their third year the number of courses goes from 8 to 4, etc. Very few get 6 exams with a 70% weighting to sit during a 10-day period, and course works and presentations which were initially due in January, moved to a couple of weeks before said exams. And I find it appalling that the opening hours of the library are 9am-5pm on Friday and 12noon-4pm on weekends, even during exam time.

Overall, self-taught course, completely lacking a proper structure, commitment from lecturers and proper facilities, and does not deserve to be on the course list of a 2nd class university, let alone Imperial College.

The comments above sounds very reasonable and of course i will not want to let this kind of treatment and the unfair markings plua the ridiculous and unprofessionalism amongst the teaching staffs and the lack of teaching support affect the first year as well.

Can we get this clear, many of the final year students did not enter Wye through clearing, myself being one. Having come from a highly recognised school with high a-levels, I was sure 'Imperial' would nurture my talents and skills to allow me reach the peaks of my potential. How wrong could I be!

B did not return one of my emails in three years, and when I encountered him/her s/he simply replied 'Just carry on I will one day,' (followed by his/her laugh).

I have also suffered under A, in my second year for my dissertation, whereby emails again went unanswered.

To my dismay I had both as markers for a section of my final year dissertation, and as predicated before I received my actual mark, the result was poor. [i]Removed pending legal advice, 05 Jul 2007 19:49[i]. I had worked a great deal harder than others, who used my presentation material to receive higher grades with different tutors.

Yes, many essays unreturned, and yet to have one single exam paper returned, maybe I will receive them now, as I struggle to find a job!

Giving the final year students 5-6 months in the beginning of the term to do nothing and then cramming all of the forgotten coursework’s and presentations into a short period of time has not worked, do you think they will change their structure?

Me neither!!

''Imperiallllll!''

To the previous posters, although I have some sympathy for you, I would make a few points:

1) Don't just email people if you actually have something important to say. Knock on their door, or phone them. Follow it up.

2) Getting lots of exams in a short period is par for the course at Imperial. I had my 8 final exams in 2 weeks, these counted for maybe 50% of my entire degree. And it was hell, yes, but the stronger among us can survive...

3) You were pretty dumb to choose a course just because of the Imperial name. Did it not occur to you that studying in Wye was not the same experience as doing say a physical sciences degree? Did you not look at the entry requirements for the course? Individual subject ratings? I doubt the entry req is AAA.

At the risk of sounding mean, you should have been a little more 'proactive' the past 3 years. I would have been, if I'd known I was heading for a 2.2.

Rule #1 about Imperial: You're not as smart as you think you are. 3As at A level means precisely nothing when you get here...

maybe it may be important to point out that during our exams, teacher were walking around with our cid numbers, i thought exam papers were meant to be anonymous to avoid any form of bias!

3As means nothing....so grades dont mean jack for A level...so the imperial students in S. Ken should be on the same standing as a Wye student if they got 3 As as well.

Therefore, if the ratio of good degrees at Wye is less, then doesnt that mean that there is something wrong with Wye?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am a hard working student. No one can take that away from me.

I am disappointed because despite my hard work, I have not attained a good grade. I feel hard done by the system and I know it is life if they don't change the grade. It is not my biggest concern, life is more than just a person pointing and finger at me and saying "You are no good"

But if I can say anything about the system that is being run, then the above is my honest opinion.

So your all saying your genisues?? Well if you all deserved higher grades why did people get 2:1 or 1st because they worked?? no?? Im sure some people are happy with their 2:2's!!!

And if you did well at a level doesnt mean your going to mean your going to do well at your degree......remember a lot of you people who got A's that you brag about went to private school and got spoon fed.....if you wanna do well at imperial you got to put the effort that warrants it......

Also not everyone goes to Wye through clearing you tosspot scum.....some people went and got in with abb so f**k you and got 2:2

Dear Editor,

Regarding the issue with multiple posts from select IP addresses, it has been brought to my attention that there are in fact a group of graduates having a little gathering tonight who have posted.

Also, I have also been informed that there are a number of people who have had to email their post to friends who have posted for them, specifically a couple in banking who work late and are not permitted to post on such sites.

If anyone has made multiple posts (I cannot myself identify where posts are coming from) I would hope that they are developments of opinions. One of our biggest challenges in this movement so far has been actually recalling the incredible plethora of failings at Wye. 3 years of institutional incompetence takes a while to recall and so the process is ongoing. This is why we are compiling a dossier and why it is taking such a long time to make it comprehensive.

As for myself, I am staying in Wye (the epicentre of the furore) with a friend at the moment, just in case there are any questions as to the authenticity of this post! He is a second year and was one of the first to post.

In the spirit of this article and posting frenzy, I will add but one comment of my own. For the time being. We were told ONE WEEK before our Financial Management exam that the textbook we had used all year, and spent £40 on (I don't care who wants to point the finger of financial resentment - I am from a working class background and unfortunately don't have access to such luxuries as a 4x4; or decent lecturers it would seem...) was 'inadequate' for the exam. We were told to get another book, but, of course, the library had only one (out of date) copy - for over a hundred students.

Believe me, there is much, much more where this came from. The truth will out... especially in regard to the subjectivity of lecturers in Wye.

O go on. One more. Having gone to see Iain Frasier to discuss my economics essay (in my third and most important year), I was told, and I quote: "Get out of my office. You are not worth my time."

Imperial College: World Class, my a*se.

What exactly can one do with an undergraduate business degree? And why is it being taught at Wye? We have perfectly unhelpful lecturers in the business schoool...

The mediocrity of teaching in business subjects would be homogenised if College adopted a lodestar of increased centralisation to leverage staff resources more effectively.

I too have just left Wye with a low class degree, which I never would have dreamed of getting when I applied (not through clearing) and subsequently began the course with great motivation and determination in aiming for that 1st. But it became very apparent quite quickly that we were indeed fighting this losing battle and that motivation plummeted with every lecture/assignment mark/correspondence.

I echo most of the complaints and claims that have already been made by the others who have indeed suffered at the hands of Wye, especially with regards to poor teaching, to the point we were in actual fact self taught come exam time; poor communication amongst everyone; irregular marking despite some guideline in the course guide; poor services and facilities (hardly any books for our course, just a library full of agricultural/science books); lack of anonymity despite assurances; poor marking and poor effort to mark assignments (I have yet to receive a single mark for the entire BIS module, or receive an assignment back! courtesy of course of B, who supposedly said s/he was making his questions harder on the exam so student would favor O'Hanley's questions, because s/he 'couldn't be bothered to mark them'!!); rude and arrogant lecturers who instead of being encouraging and inspiring seem to thrive and take pride in every bad mark they issue, (such as Diogo, who refused to speak to us when we knocked on his already open door, because it wasn't his 'office hours' (it was before 4pm on a weekday!) and subsequently ignored 4-6 meeting requests we emailed him!); etc, etc, etc...

Whilst I appreciate that all courses and indeed other universities face similar problems such as the cramming of assignments into one period, there are SO many more fundamental problems with the Wye Business Management course, that I refuse to believe that it fair and/or just that I have received such low classification, that will forever be a representation of my ability.

It enrages me that the last 3 years of my life despite the many fond memories, etc has come to such a sour end that I have since strongly regretted having ever applied.

I certainly hope that when I reach the latter part of my degree, I will see a greater degree of professionalism. I have been to other establishments where there have been problems with subjectivity, racism and preferential treatment amongst lecturers and tutors, and I would not like to have a repeat of such experiences. I can assure you that is not at all enjoyable nor constructive to your education.

I'd like to take the time to remind all those who think little of our plight in Wye that we are not 3rd rate citizens. We are simply fellow Imperial students who have been dealt a bad hand. It could easily be you in a similar position in your respective departments, and with that in mind, I'd appreciate it if you could try to understand this before posting unconstructive comments.

I would like to believe that as Imperial is one of the top universities in the UK, that we may expect to receive similar attention as has been given to Oxbridge students. Wye was my first choice, because I was assured of a good quality of teaching, and I enjoyed the surroundings. I still want to see those expectations realised.

Essentially, this is our lives that are being affected. We choose Imperial, not only for the name, but also because of the environmentally minded course structure.

Some students don't work hard, and some students do, but we all deserve the same chance. It's what we came to University to have. I'd like to know that if I got a good grade, it was due to the level of effort I put into my work, or the level of my intelligence. I wouldn't want to have my future threatened because of problems with tutors attitudes/egos/work ethics.

I know that egos must be stroked to some degree, but however, as educators, our tutors must take the time out from their research projects and papers to take the responsibility to educate us properly. It is, after all, what we pay them to do.

I have often felt however, during my time in Wye, that we are being treated in a flippant way by Imperial, what with less support, lower funding, removal of key staff and services, and an overall degeneration of quality over the year. This is something that needs to be addressed.

Please don't let the comments here fall on deaf ears. We deserve the same chance for a good education from the top university that we all enrolled in.

Incidentally, I personally feel that Imperial could benefit by moving the entire course over to an expanded Tanaka Business school.

As much as I enjoy Wye, I feel that the comment of Imperial subjecting us to a "slow painful death" is by far the most poignant. It's less noticble, but more of us get hurt along the way. I'd rather a quick decision and a rapid transitionary period than the mess students have to deal with.

I'm concerned that as far as I'm aware none of these concerns have been brought en masse to the union. Before people start harking on about how that would be useless, or DPEW has scored at least one large success for students this year (top up fees).

This article is the first i've heard of this in two years, and i've sat on pretty much every committee going. This doesn't seem to be just a case of people moaning after recieving what they percieve to be dissapointing grades, so i don't know why it hasn't (seriously) surfaced before

there seems to be a lot of anger about low class degrees!

poor teaching and poor treatment granted may have meant people didn't get the degrees they perhaps deserved.

What can you do about it??? will your complaints change much??

If you want to have your degrees upgraded forget about it! Imperial College would never change your degree grade one issued! As this would mean all degrees would have to be re issued.

The only way degrees will be changed, is if candidates have been disqualified from their degrees, through cheating in exams.

Firstly this stereotype of the rich with 4X4 is so silly just like you can not base the idea of good teaching on the failings of a few, you can not class the average wye student on the basis of a handful. Those with 4x4's do attend lectures and are not stupid.

Student life in wye is poor academically not because of anything but the loss of motivation with the whole takeover from Kent. Lecturers are not secure with thier jobs after long careers so why would they care for their students. A is one of few lecturers whose lectures are worth going to where s/he is easy to follow and has a good knowledge of his/her modules. I dont know her in terms of preferntial treatment and if that is the case that is very disappointing. Other lectures are terrible, for instance D who turned up to a revision lecture for the second years after a flurry of requests only to say nothing except if you were this year you would know...she was not willing to go through areas students found rough and constantly stated that she was late for her train in Ashford. No one expected hints for exams but at it was one of the more difficult modules wanted to recap areas: her response i suggest you go and buy a text book before the exam next week. The only productive thing from that lecture was she told us we dont need the stated three hours for that exam as she expects short precise answers.

The work ethic in Wye amongst students at least is a positive one in that students take it upon themselves to make mock papers when only one sample is given. The students then compare and argue answers. Students get together in spare rooms and have revision sessions together. This is what I signed up to when I chose Wye and expected the academic teaching to be in line with Imperial standard not for the 'name' but for the reputation if excellent academic achievement has. It has become clear that South Kensington does not care for Wye in many ways which is not how it should be. Although the campus is being handed over Imperial have a responsibility to their students to give them the education they thought they would get in good faith. It should not have anything to with background or clearing the standard should be high once students are there. The shame of it all is that it makes little difference if you attend most lectures as Wikipedia is more informative than the lectures themselves. University is meant to be about independent learning but lectures should provide something more so that it assists what is already learnt. It is really unfortunate that so many in the year above have recieved poor results and does not do much for motivation in the two years left below. Next year threatens more adverse changes none of which South Kensington seem to care about.

So many people can say it is the fault of the students but when the teachers have no motivation left then the students are fighting a losing battle. It would be ashame if Imperial did not at least take this as a way to investigate what is going on and just brushed this all under the carpet.

I do sympathise with the third year’s plight. While there I noticed that how you performed was based on your relationship with lecturers. There were 'secret' revision sessions and I even know of some instances where certain individuals were told exactly what to look over for the exams.

Also there seems to be a correlation between the difficulty of the viva (which I never had to do) and the student’s relationship with the lecturers.

Based on all this the third years never had a chance.

I'm completely insulted that all my hard work has completely gone to waste, this year I worked exceedingly hard, completed all my assignments in on time, received high 2.1s and 1sts throughout the year and thought I'd done equally well for my exams only to be faced with a 3rd class degree!! Which a number my teachers, who knew my academic level and continual input, still can't believe! How can this possibly make sense?

My only explanation is that my dissertation was a disgrace; then why did my personal supervisor, who is happy to make patronising comments about me at his leisure, not guide me through out the course like he was supposed to?? Thinking about it now, its almost as if the lecturer wanted me to fail! I should have guessed this from his rude and abnoxious behaviour, not to mention the numerous occasions I caught him happily staring at my cleavage!!! It was so obvious I was fighting a losing battle, I just chose to ignore it and hope for the best, but unfortunately things never work when you push them under the carpet, we as Wye students learnt the hard way!

@ 2007 graduate

Obnoxious starts with an o not an a

at comment no 52

Since when has dyslexia been a crime!!!!

Correcting spelling mistakes is hardly relevant right now, i made a few in message 49 because im at work and typing qucikly before the boss sees. Really unecessary message when people are trying to express their frustration.

Yeah its seems as if many people are missing the point here. if we can prove that the standard of education was as such a low standard as to making it almost impossible for the majority to achieve anything worthwhile, then the sky is the limit, there are many legislations surround educational institutions and it is the duty of the representatives to identify these and bring them to the attention of those in charge at imperial.

It is more than apparent that we have been deprived of the best and our futures are really becoming very difficult because of it. i am not here to defend the people who know in their hearts that they didnt deserve a good degree, i represent the number of people who feel, to a harsh degree, raped by this campus and those in the future who are so scared that this will happen to them in future years, it must stop

If someone were to approach the faculty at wye about their childish and spiteful behaviour i would love to hear their defence. The fact is we have so much proof, they probably don't want to meet anyone for fear of the realisation that the corrupt ship they were running in wye has finally gone public.

and in response to James Millen who asked why this has never surfaced before? it is the same reason most of the people involved in this debate here are using anonymous names, subjectivity! we are all very aware that the faculty are made aware of every complaint towards them and who exactly is making them! if we made complaints in the first and second year i dread to think the degrees we wouldve got.....this is just an insight into how paranoid and insecure we have become being at such a popularity contest of a Uni Campus in which lecturers are blatant in their vendettas.

PS. as one of the people contributing to the dossier could ANYONE with complaints, such as the lady complaining about D and the other entries complaining about any teachers please use the facebook group set up and email the admin staff as it all matters the dossier is very much underway but the more accounts we have, the better we will fair.

No. 38 ENGINEER is not as smart as he thinks he is. No one mentioned 3As. My straight As = 5As.

Ah yes, the new and easier A Level system. When I were a lad...

I am outraged by the comments I am reading here. I have just finished my first year at Wye Campus and am disgusted at the way the campus as a whole is run. Firstly, many lecturers failed to turn up on time or in the correct place. They were disorganised and failed to actually offer any sort of support as they were never avaliable outside hours. Furthermore, what I heard in most lectures was a man/lady reading a textbook - something that all the students were more than capable of doing by themselves. No exam preparation was given except in mathematics and statistics. For one of the best Institutions in the WORLD this is

The teaching standard at this college was a joke. All the lecturers did was summarize points from related books onto dull endless slides and read them out in a monotonous tone. Thanks but i could have just read those books at home rather than traveling half way across the world and spending all that money. The only thing more ludicrous than their teaching methods was their grading. Twice i handed in assignments that were not graded without any explanation given. The lecturers didn't even bother replying to my e-mails regarding this issue. And now as a final insult, they slap us with these ridiculous grades...

appaling. Whats worse is when lecturers tell us that we will not be having an exam (something that we have studied hard for all year round) because they can not be bothered. The least they could do is make up an excuse. Its not fair that the work we've worked hard on as it was meant to count for our final degree, will not be rightfully awarded.

Words can't describe how upsetting it is to have such unmotivated, unapporachable and incapable lecturers. I struggle to understand how Imperial is 9th in the world, given the way it is managed.

I would also like to add how injust it is to refer to us students as "rich and diving round in our 4x4". Many of us have come from middle class backgrounds and have worked hard to get where we are today. Just because you see a few people throw their money around and drive flash cars does not given one the right to generalise.

At first I felt it was because the campus was sold off to Kent Uni and I was in the last cohort of Imperial, but after reading other's comments I realise that this has been going on for years. I now ponder on how my future will work out. As a top hard-working A grade student at A level, it seems unfair like many others to just simply be failed, when we have continued to work hard. My only conclusion is that Imperial are doing so to avoid the headache and cost of admin fees..... I'd gladly say I was incorrect if anyone can justify the 90% that just graduated with less than a 2.2....

Some of the posts above have been modified to replace names of two academics with the letters "A" and "B". The reasons for this are as follows:

• the allegations are of serious professional misconduct, so have the potential to open the posters, Live! Editor and/or College up to legal action if they are false
• Live! currently has no independent evidence to support the allegations
• The relevant people in College have seen the posts so they have served their purpose
• We do not wish to prejudice any investigation into academic staff
• The posts are anonymous

Consequently it would be irresponsible to allow the names of the staff involved to continue to appear. Should Live! discover independent evidence, or College conclude that misconduct has occured, the relevant names will be reinstated.

The change is consistent throughout the discussion.

Well maybe once we get shot of Wye Imperial might move even higher than 9th.

I studied in Wye for my Environmental Degree and graduated last year. I had great teachers who helped us with us and our degree a lot.

Just because only 10% of the people got above 2:2 doesn't mean the teaching or academic standard is bad or anything, it just means the business students did not work hard enough. I remember them always driving around, disturbing others, taking over the union for smoking shisha and always complain when they got a bad grade even though obviously they did work for it at all. I think this is a reflection of the standard of people Wye campus was taking, they should have tightened it in the first place. i think they should feel lucky and apprecipate the fact that they actually will graduate with a degree that says Imperial on it, which I am sure they did not deserve in the first place.

I agree very much with KY. I also graduated last year with a business degree from Wye with a top degree and I felt that I received all the support and help I needed. Perhaps, the teaching in the summer did carry on very close to exams, I figured that was normal after speaking to friends. Moreover, the exams are marked independently no matter what people on here are saying and even if the teachers at Wye were prejudiced, the external examiner who remarks all the final year papers will rectify it. In terms of the dissertation, the teachers are looking for extremely high standard. In fact, my lowest mark last year was for the dissertation but luckily, I made up for my grade with the exams. Similarly, after doing my masters at another top uni, I can safely say that a lot of teachers are demotivated and quite uncaring about students and if you ask questions, you are directed straight to the textbook.

Although I empathize, I really doubt that you guys will actually see an improvement in your grade. As someone pointed out in an earlier post, this is nearly impossible unless the grades in the whole of the Imperial are reissued. However, if the teaching is as poor as u guys believe it to be, then hopefully the future third years will benefit.

I am now given a second class lower honour, I however strongly think that I should have been given and second class upper honour. The problem of the system in wye is that, when I was in first year, there are subjects such as agriculture, ecology and current issues. I felt really dismotivated by these 3 subjects and cannot make a clear connection between these three subjects and the business world, although they sometimes barely connect them with the eco-businesses. Throughout the 2nd and the 3rd year, teaching standard was quite poor, however there are also a really small portion of better lecturers. The sport facilities, I personally think would need to be greatly improved, basically the area can only support a single badminton court, think about that, well there are also a football pitch, tennis court in the witherdane area. The swimming pool has got to be one of the most unused facilities, this is because it is serverly polluted and no one would dare swim in it, ask anybody in the campus and they will surely agree.

At the end, I felt that if my result is some what unfair. I have heard that our results are pushed down, because Imperial College think that South kensington courses have a higher entry rates and therefore to make a fair comparision, the exam results in wye is being pushed down. If this is true then this is surely not fair, since this is not stated when we apply to this course at wye campus.

Edwin Lam are u saying that u initially received a 3rd and now have been given a 22?

Dear All

Stephen Brown (incoming ICU President) and I met with the Deputy Rector to discuss the Wye exam results yesterday afternoon.

In summary:

1. 26% of graduates from Wye received 1st or 2:1 degrees this year.
2. This is down from 55% last year.
3. The Faculty of Natural Sciences are conducting a general investigation into allegations of poor teaching and resources at Wye this year.
4. The Deputy Rector and ICU will monitor this investigation and advocate students' interests in this review where possible.
5. In parallel with this investigation, all students are advised to pursue individual academic appeals in accordance with the normal procedure and lodge their appeals with Andrew Russell (exams@imperial.ac.uk) within three months of the date their degree was awarded
6. Further advice on lodging appeals is provided here: http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/portal/pls/portallive/docs/1/7257950.PDF
7. The Union Adviser, Nigel Cooke (n.cooke@imperial.ac.uk), will be on hand to provide one-to-one advice should any student wish to seek individual support from ICU.

We will keep you posted of further developments as they happen.

Best wishes

John Collins, ICU President

Further to my post above:

Send your appeals to the address below (not exams@imperial.ac.uk)

ns2.registry@imperial.ac.uk

John

Most of the lectures are actually pointless to go to, beside the fact that the lecturers will remember who attended:

Marketing Research Techniques- D speaks so fast with her very strong accent, covering enormous amounts of material in every lecture. I dont think she even expects any student to understand what she is teaching.... except she isnt teaching, only reading out very quickly what is written on the slides.

E, Economics- Completely self taught course! If you ask a question in lecture you are either not listening or stupid. I have not found one student who could tell me they understood what he talked about in lectures, and no one has the courage to ask him anything... we are left to our own interpretation of the blue folders...

A and B- mistakes on every exam, on every practice paper, on most hand outs. Yes, we do study for exams using hand outs recieved in lectures which are full of mistakes, and while studying one never knows if its a mistake or not.... nothing like always being in doubt about notes recieved from lectures....so world class...

In all honesty, the only lecturer I would not say a bad word about is Janet Haddock. The rest are a complete joke.

From the day we arrived we have been told of what a world class institution Imperial is, and how Wye campus is not to feel separate. We are just as much part of Imperial as any other student in South Kensington, and we will recieve a world class education.

Going to Imperial I was expectiving a VERY high standard of education, only to find out that most of my lecturers are Wye College graduates, from when it was still a completely agricultrual college, or Kent University lecturers. I don't even expect nobel prize winners like my friends in slightly lower ranking Universities such as Royal Holloway or Kings have.

But how are we recieving a world class education?!!? I dont recall any of my lecturarers being known for publishing a famous book on the subject, being authors of the textbooks we use, or even having taught at other renown universities....

I had better lecturers at school!

Don't even get me started on the facilities! We pay the same amount as students in South Kensington, but have a serious shortage of business related books! I remember when a philosophy essay was assigned it was a fight of wolves for that very large collection of 4 books available for 150 students!

World class institution, world class education.... is this a joke??? cause if it is its a bad one!

THE WORST PART IS THAT SOUTH KENSINGTON MIGHT READ THIS, MIGHT NOT.... BUT WILL DEFINATELY DO NOTHING ABOUT IT! WHY? CAUSE NOBODY CARES! APPARENTLY EVERYONE KNEW IMPERIAL OR WYE WAS A JOKE.... EXCEPT FOR THE STUDENTS BEFORE THEY GOT THERE!

SO MANY FRIENDS I HAVE SPEAK OF THE LECTURERS THEY HAVE AT THEIR UNIVERSITIES SO PROUDLY... ALL I DO IS TRY TO CHANGE THE TOPIC OF CONVERSATION!

They are listening, look at the posts above yours...

I am extremely shocked a lot of people finsihed with 2.2 and 3rd. Having being accepted into Wye, I am still battling myself if I should still jump ship to a completely different university as this campus is nothing short of a JOKE. My first year was a jokes with completely irrelevant courses being taught to us comapred to other friends in other lower ranked universities. We were being taught Introduction to Agriculture whilst my other friend where to Introduction to Financial Investment...ummh i wonder who Goldman Sacs would employ. needless to say i got in 1st in this ridiculous subject but how do i explaint that to an employer in the City.

The above mentioned lecturers are definitely as described, unfair, biased and worst off all prone to making a high level of unacceptable mistakes.

I could hardly grasp the Business Management course because Lecture A could never explain anything clearly, choosing to bumble through the lecture and utter the "sorry i made a mistake line" every 10 mins thereby creating a double jeopardy situation. This offcourse led to large number of students self studying in the library but offcourse we could not go for long as the libray closed at 5, and remained the same during exam time, only sometimes did it remain open after 5 and this was due to a massive student uproar. I have been forced to travel all the way to Kent Uni to study which I must say was gladly done in my L reg car akin to the falsefied 4x4 statement above.

I am really confused about this campus because I don't receive no teachings of benefit, i believe university is a portal of thought where free thinking and encouragement is provided to students so that we may develop our views and also better the views of those already established but this campus and its lecturers have increasing forced upon students the notion of all u need to know is in the text book which I 100% refute for if this was true, new editions of text books costing £50 would not be published. Our lectueres are selfish especially A and B (who keeps on banging about what a great accountant she was yet you never made us understand depreciation) albeit the great Janet Haddock.

I would hope this problem is resolved as interest rates have increased (again) and I would definitely need a good job to be able to afford a decent form of living and this cannot be achieved by getting a 2:2 or third after walking your socks off.

PLEASE DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE F**KING FACILITIES

This discussion has made its point and is currently going round and round in circles. Due to its fast-moving nature it will be temporarily locked while we look into some complaints we have received and make sure no-one gets sued.

John Collins, 26% got 2.1s or above. but is that all wye students or just the Applied business management course? The reason i ask is because the problem here is with the ABM course, the other environmental and animal science courses only had two three people who got 2.2s the rest were firsts and 2.1s out of about 20-30 on all the courses combined. they were helped with their courses as well as many of the 2007 graduates would be happy to admit, like literally "this is what will come up" from their lecturers.

the problem is only with the ABM course so to i thinks its important for the head honchos to let us know whether they meant all courses or just the ABM course.

cheers

This discussion is now open again, please only post if you have a new complaint to add - it looks like everything has been covered above.

If your complaint is especially serious, please do not mention names, but forward your complaint with evidence to president@imperial.ac.uk. We can't permit unsubstantiated allegations and second hand evidence when reputations and possibly careers are involved.

As this has been the crime with the 3rd years....all I wish to add is that there will be very serious repurcussions if the 2nd years are made guinea pigs for poor teaching and testing inefficient waters. This will influence our futures.Also as one comment states "only 10% deserved 1sts"....isnt this quite a subjective comment. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO MARK ON THE BASES OF MERIT!. LOOK all that im trying to get across is the existence of a vast a**enal of ammunition that will be at our fingertips if any thing is to go wrong with our degrees.

PS to all those who keep touching on the income class of students....YES we're rich and with riches come contacts which are more than happy to carry our rich parent's and our interests forward!

It is pretty true that the teaching standards were poor, and the college did very little to help, although there were a few lecturers that had try to do thier job properly, i.e. J.Bough. She (probably the only one) tried to help students.

I'm disappointed as well, and the GBP 36000 that I've paid for educaation didn't worth it. It is a self-taught course. I was expecting a 2.1 but now I have to explain to my firm why I didn't get it and it is a hassle...

Anyway, market opens soon. Good luck everyone!

Didn't know 4x4s can become sour grapes for some people. What if you see someone driving a Ferrari? Will you hate him/her forever? Haha.

I wonder if someone can answer a question which as so far failed to be answered: there are many points throughout a 3 year course where people can complain, including through the use of "SOLE". Only 4 people at Wye appear to have filled it in for the courses being criticised and they were generally positive.

Why did none of you complain using SOLE? It is anonymous, so the concern that complaining would affect your marks as no merit for it.

In response to the question os SOLE apop-up did come up everytime we logged into a library account which was often however there was an error with the link and all th links sent. Unfortunately nobody including myself took it upon themselves to tell anyone because to be honest there was work to be done and most of us were more worried about revision.

Please also remember that some of the comments such as no.62 are very out of line. Students are feeling frustrated and like it or not Wye is a recognised part of Imperial and will be for the next two years by isolating and criticising us it will not go from 9th to first in the world. In fact if it is indeed the weakest part surely more effort should be in making it stronger and investigating any problems. An istitution is only going to be as strong as its weakest department so more people should be spending time being helpful because it will reflect badly on everyone. Those people who no longer have the future they hoped will stuggle it is not as though everyone came from a rich background and will be ok regardless of their degree result there are a lot of ambitious, bright students at Wye and this would show if Sounth Ken took the time to see this.

Hey! I tried to fill in the SOLE form as well!! I tried twice, both times didn't get through and said there was an error in submitting my form. A waste of my time again.

Did you email the address on the website to complain? That's usually resolved any problems I've had with the system within about 4 hours...

The lectures were only attended by 15% of the year. The problem with Wye is, to fill places they dropped the A Level requirements. SO about 70% of the year were made up of idiots who had to cheat in exams!

So to all the idiots out there, they wont drop the Imperial Standards for you to get a 2:1.

Before anyone replies saying the lectures were s**t, no they wernt, you never went to enough, plus Lectures I went to at Reading, Oxford and South Ken were no worse! Apart from Diogo, but there is always one.

There is no problem at Wye, just a tendancy for students to believe they shouldnt have to work hard.

In fact, following on from above, lets see who went to lectures and who got a 2:1 or First. Oh is there a direct correlation, oh I think there is.

And who didnt go, Adem, Don, oh what a suprise, the people who are complaining about not getting a 2:1

Cant agree more with the last two comment, at last some realistic insight into the goings on at wye! It is true that most of those complaining were never seen at lectures so how they can comment on the quality of lecturing is beyond me!

Also to those attempting to muddy the names of lecturers A and B how would you expect them to react to you if you are loud and abusive to them throughout first year lectures or dont even bother turning up? They are only human!!

In essence, i think some people need to realise that you usually get what you deserve and get out of thins what you put in.... if those who recieved 'bad degrees' really look hard at them selves i'm sure the majority will see that they did not do enough over the THREE YEARS.......

Re: 81. engineer

Thanks for your advice. In fact, I did. No one replied. I still have the electronic copy showing the time & date that I sent the email if anyone wants evidence.

That is disappointing... SOLE working correctly would probably have stopped a lot of this mess from happening in the first place.

The mentality at Wye was to be lazy, people didnt care about SOLE, people didnt turn up to events, people did nothing, no surveys, the place was just like that.

It was not a failure of SOLE, it has probably had the lowest % replies from Wye over the last 5 years!

Just because of that mentality, it does not mean the boundaries of grades will change like an A Level does! No-one can deny that at Wye we dont work hard enough, N-J the library shuts at 5 on Friday only, the other weekdays its at 9-30

Well, they used bribery at South Ken to get people to do SOLE because turnout was so low initially...

We had the same at Wye, prizes, offers for printing credits, plus other things. Because people felt they wernt part of South Ken, they rebeled against the place, complaining at every aspect.

I mean the facilities are great, we even have our own playing fields on site. People wanted to find reasons to hate the place, and it reflects in the results, as people decided the Lecturers werer rubbish, although they wernt at all! It is just the mentality

I worked hard and have got a 2.1 To be honest, most (but not all) of the people complaining are intelligent, but lazy. I know for a fact that they weren't at lectures. Whether there was no motivation to go, or lecturers read from text books, we are at university and we are not there to be spoon fed, so if they felt that lectures weren't good enough to attend, then they should have been doing there own study during lecture time, which I'm sure that they weren't doing.

Although people feel they deserved nothing less than a 2.1, if they were doing a course in South Ken, and put in the same amount of effort they did in Wye they would still have come out with 3rds. I just cannot understand why people are complaing about lecturers when they either didn't turn up for lectures, or sat in the back making noise so that, we, the people that wanted to do well struggled. Arrogance does not equal good grades. Again, I know this isn't the story for some people, and favourtism did come into play, especially with dissertation marking, but most of the people complaining on this website only worked at the last minute.

During Easter I studied in the South Ken library. I was there from 9-9. I noticed some south ken students stayed literally 24hrs and slept for a few hours in between. That is dedication. I'd be very suprised if those people came out with 3rds, but Wye students who are complaing would probably say they had better lectures or better this or that (add any excuse you want)!

In my opnion, I agree that lots of the lecturers were hard to contact, but most people contacted them last minute before exams or coursework, so if half the year want to see a lecturer at the same time, of course lots of people will miss out.

I know that people are going to write comments about what I've written, but all I'll say is that the third years last year worked so much harder than we did, and from the first year everyone thought of us as the lazy year, which we were. If you really worked hard from the beginning of the year, went to all the lectures, had all your own notes and not photocopied other peoples and got a third, please do complain. But those that worked hard at the last minute, or the night before don't bother, it will make the hard workers look bad, as I didn't get a 2.1 by sucking up. I actually worked hard and went to lectures.

I disagree, i dont think the lecturers had favourites, but the rest is true. Recall the first year, Rich, Adem, Indy, sitting in the back making stupid noises, who looks stupid now!

Also, one other thing. If a 3rd meant you could still apply to investment banks, I'm sure students wouldn't be complaining as much.

Unfortunately these students may have contacts and I'll have to work alongside "the back row" students in the future. I think the unfairness is not with Wye, but with the arrogant students who believed they had a right to get 2.1s or 1sts so that they could work in investment banking, while some poeple decided not to use the easy route and actually proved to employers they were capable of consistently working hard.

What isn't fair is that some students who have got 2.1s or above will be overlooked by employers because pushy parents or friends will insist that the lazy 3rd class students be given a chance to prove themselves (although they weren't capable in the 3 years at Wye - again, time for excuses ).

I'm not going to name names, as that isn't fair, because maybe the people that have already been named were secretly working non stop! By the way, I saw one of those hard working 3rd class students cheat in an exam...

Note with the recent and overdue illustration of the 'other side of the story' (or the true story as i would rather it be known!) - a lull in the whinging of those 'hard working' 3rd class and 2.2 students.......

a 2.2 is not the end of the world, i got a 2.2, i wud have preferred a 2.1 but couldnt have tried harder. The papers are marked fairly and if u are polite and kind rather than rude and disruptive it is obvious that lecturers wil take more time out to help u.

If u got a 2.2 maybe u wil have to work that bit harder and work ur way up in the work place but its not a total disaster, im sure ppl who got 2.2s deserve them and i do agree that the standard of teaching could be improved but if we were really concerned we should have complained wen we first noticed in the first year rather than waiting until now!

Right, Firstly i want to answer the SOLE question Ashley asked. I personally did fill in the SOLE form and i also experienced problems with the website. But what struck me is the fact that it claimed to be anonymous but yet you had to use your personal login details to fill in a form. please correct me if im wrong but i know for a fact that this didnt make people feel particularly safe criticising the teachers. and i ask anyone, if working in a firm or institution and you had deep problems with the level above you, would you risk jeopardizing the harmony of your work for the whole of your duration there by making an appeal or complaints or would you wait until you had severed ties with that institution, having built up proof of the wrongdoings and then appeal once you had left?

Secondly, I want to respond to the degree/ lecture attendance correlation claim. Many people who i am not slanderous enough to name hardly attended many lecturers throughout their three years in Wye and still managed to achieve the best grades. What many people did, like my friend Donald and I, was study independently throughout the course of our degree in our private spaces, as did so many people on the course. This nature of self teaching was something many of us perfected. I quickly found out that being in lectures was not to my benefit but i still went to 90% of them all throughout my three years and I have every handouts and supplement to prove this, only not going to lectures through illness and other unavoidable obligations . So the correlation is unjust and untrue whoever you are Carol Reddy/Colonel Gaddafi.

This seems to be getting very personal with my name and many others being dragged into this, but these apparently intelligent top degree graduates defending the institution are obviously missing the point beyond belief. I am not, and never will defend the lazy, non working people, i stand for a more honest cause, the people who really did put the work in, maybe not through the orthodox way of going to every lecture and building a friendship with lecturers (not everyone has the personality to do that) and still came out with nothing they deserved. There is to be no defamation towards lecturers unless their is proof, that has always been my stance in the protest. At the same time, please refrain from being personal because once again, most of the comments being made about myself, don, and others are just false and are not based on any sort of evidence. So personal issues aside, lets stick to the point.

For many of us a 2.2 or a 3rd is not the end of our lives, many of us actually didnt expect anything more from Wye, but i think it is a testament to how strongly many of you feel that you support the cause in its entirety as we continue to provide evidence that we did indeed assert ourselves as much as we could whilst at uni but were left alone in what shouldve have been a cooperative relationship between student and University.

I agree totally with 94. I worked as hard as I could, and obviously would have preferred a 1st, but if I'm not capable, then I'm not capable.

I do understand why the people with 3rds are angry, because many of them are under achievers. But thats life. If you work to the best of your ability and get a third, then I congratulate you. But if you work under you ability and get a third, then thats pure laziness, and no ones fault but your own.

To be completely honest, the people that are suffering now are the small percentage that did work hard and didn't get the grades they hoped for. Unfortunately they have now been placed in a group with the lazy underachievers. How will they be able to appeal when people who cheat in exams or don't turn up to lectures are claiming they were screwed over.

I think that the hard working few will agree with me when I say that we will all be having a laugh when the arranged rally in South Ken takes place! So to those that are underachievers: Don't embarrass yourselves. Stay anonymous!

90% Richard? Read what you've just said, your kidding youself. There is no chance you worked as hard as those in South Ken have to to get 2:1s.

Rich...wake up!!

You are one of the arrogant under achievers that I'm talking about. Put yourself next to a certain German that achieved a 1st. Can you truthfully say you worked as hard as him?

I know you did work, so I'm not denying that, but you worked at a level that can only get you a 3rd (or a high 3rd if you'd prefer).

I personally sat in lectures while you made noises from the back and argued through lectures with the lecturer, wasting everyones time. I cannot understand how you can honestly believe you deserved higher than you got.

And the comment about you and Don doing self study. Please...if self study means making music in your room then you excelled yourself!

Don't bring other people down just because you want to be noticed. There are other ways to be noticed...like actually working hard!

Well I'm glad you seem to know me so well. Please dont ignorantly question my work ethic, i can assure you only my closest peers are aware of this, and you are obviously not one of them. If you got a good degree and are happy with your time at Wye then congratulations.Unfortunately not everyone is in the same boat as you.

Everyone was in the same boat, we all had the same facilities, and treatment. It was up to you if you made the most of the place, and look, some of us came out with good degrees, other not.

Whats the difference, its between those who worked harder. If you worked hard and didnt get a 2:1, then you didnt work as hard as people who did get them, end of story.

If you did work as hard, then your not as intelligent, and dont deserve it. That certain german who got a first did nothing but read up, study. He managed to do it, so why couldnt you Rich? Or me, or Don, cause we didnt do enough!

The worst thing we can do is degrade our degree even more. We got 2:2s at Imperial College, with their well known high standards.

Richard Abiade. This is not a personal attack at you. I find it very unfair that people (and one person I know in particular) worked non stop for the whole year and achieved 2.2s. They should be the ones appealing.

I am not questioning your work ethics, although it has been proven throughout the years and in other universities that going to lectures benefits students. What I am questioning is the validity of your claim to being a hard worker and not gaining a deserved degree.

You have always been the one throughout the years to argue your point, and thats one skill that you should never lose, but argue with valid (and honest) points.

And yes, I am not in your close network of friends, but I am neither in the German's close network of friends, but I could clearly see his hardwork and dedication. I'm sorry you felt you had to keep your hard work and dedication for your friends only!

For those of you obsessively reading this thread and not looking at front page, I have put my own view on all of this in an editorial here: http://live.cgcu.net/news/editorial/1546.

I have never seen a year, which works so poorly, they all gossip and complain, no wonder they dont have any time to study. Get on with your lives, nothing is going to happen, and so it shouldnt!

Okay, I think this whole thing is getting far too personal, is very unproductive and missing the whole point.

Firstly, we have established that grades are primarily a combination two factors 1) working hard and 2)natural ability/intelligence. NO ONE, therefore has the right or capability to judge or say what anyone else deserves, because no one can possibly know the level of these two factors with regards to other people. It's true that people can make generalizations and use others as examples to benchmark ourselves against but even that is too vague. I didn't want to mention anyone in particular but for example (and I hope the said person doesn't mind) this certain German got a 1st but does that mean he got 71% or 85%...sure it doesn't matter a 1st is a 1st, but from what I can generalize I believe he may have deserved more around the latter, someone else may have deserved the former but they have the same mark!

Another example, if we do want to generalize and assume, (again I hope they don't mind me using their names), are Ronke and Akosua, who I am sure no one can deny their level of hard work and capability, both got grades they did not 'deserve'. And seeing as Rich is the one suffering the most abuse here, I can honestly say that from what I could see Rich was in the library everyday working hard, and in my opinion its unfair to also judge Richard by association to others, which is from what I understand what you are all doing.

But like I said it is not for anyone to say or generalize about other people, its highly inappropriate and very rude, and if you do truly sympathize with those 'minority' who have worked hard and have the capability but didn't get a good mark, then your negative comments and complete dismissal of the Wye problem is extremely nonconstructive for their appeal.

Secondly, irrespective of attendance and what I deserve and all that nonsense, I believe after a while everyone knows to a certain extent what inputs create what outputs. By this I mean that by the second year everyone has a grasp of the level of work they need to put in to attain a certain grade or thereabouts, you generate this by looking at grades from past essays, presentations and exams. So I know for myself that I worked much harder this year than in previous years, and my coursework marks suggested this. In addition to that I was more prepared for the exams, I wrote a lot more, and what I wrote was more concise and relevant than my attempts in previous years. So my main complaint is that I am baffled, as to how it is possible tha I received a lower grade in the year I put more effort in and my courseworks were better!! THERE ARE IRREGULARITIES IN WYE THAT ARE UNEXPLAINED!! This is the point of this protest to get these answered!

Lastly, whether you attained a good grade (in which case congratulations and I am truly happy for you) or not, this is more a protest about the course and how it was conducted. Yes some people did not let it bring them down and battled through it and I give them much credit, but I refuse to believe that everyone does not agree that the Business Management course at Wye was poorly taught, poorly organized and very unorthodox in many respects. This is the key issue here not slagging people off and making yourselves feel better.

I feel that there is too much blaming going on here. I believe that we were undertaught lets firstly talk about C, a certain individual from the 3rd year went to see him regarding the 1st economics essay after he received a bad mark. C's reply was that if he had attended lectures he would have known what he would have required to get a better mark. I can understand it from the lecturers that no1 turned up to their lectures, but the last time I checked lectures were not compulsory. Secondly maybe these lecturers need to look at themselves and wonder what they are doing wrong. Lets talk about the good lecturers marketing and management (Janet Haddock - who is great) always had full lectures, why? because she knew her stuff and made it interesting, Secondly Sandra Dedman always had full lectures, despite criticism of her I feel she is a good lecturuer and did as much as possible to help us. Recall the first year putting in model answers for quantitative methods, which if u learnt properly would get u a 1st. Finally David Morelli (Very good lecturer) also had full attendances. So maybe these so called lecturers should look at themselves and wonder why their lectures are under-attended. However as many of us really know we did not work hard enough to get our desired grades. Johann and Ivan for instance were epitomies of what you had to do to get firsts. Even so Ivan did not get a 1st he was actually borderline, can these 2:2 students honestly lay claim to putting in as much effort as Ivan or Johann? If u go to other universities people actually work in their libraries I have been to many libraries Herts, UCL, Imperial, Kings and have found that people actually work........what a shock!!! This was not the case at our library if we are honest with ourselves. Maybe some people were in fact passed over which i do believe to be the case but I don't agree with all the finger pointing from many more people, I feel it is unfair on those that actually did work hard to be classed in the same degree bracket as someone who is a lot less lazy.

Good luck to people with their appeals, those who deserved their grade I am sure will get it.

I got a 2:1, so can I claim that if you got a 2:2 and deserved a 2:1, i therefore deserve a 1st, and the german deserves a what, a nobel prize for his dissertation?

Apologies for any personal references, but it is very hard not to become personal when I saw the level of work I put in, and other people who have complained put in.

I fully support the few that have put more in than they got out. I'd be happy to campaign for these people, as it could easily have happened to me, and if it did, I hope that I would have other people backing me.

But how can we seperate these people from the time wasters? It seems to be that every person with a third is jumping onto the same band wagon? At least some people on this thread have had the decency to admit that they did not work hard enough (although they may have worked hard).

To be honest, I hated Wye. But as I was stuck there, instead of moaning nonstop I did something about it. I proved to the lecturers that we were not all slackers. I gave up going to liquid or to the works to go to bed so I could wake up for the next morning lecture. I have friends in LSE and UCL who got 2.1s and partied. They got the balance right. I r