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Council to Re-pass Constitution?

Jan 21 2008 08:44
Giovanni
This evening's meeting of ICU Council is being asked to re-pass the constitution passed at the end of last year, leading many to ask if this is another piece of useless hackery or if there is really a point.
Lots of paper at the last Council of 2006-2007 - but some changes were "snuck in"

At the end of last year, ICU Council passed a new constitution establishing, amongst other things, a trustee board. A paper by Jon Matthews is now asking Council to re-pass the same constitution, as the way in which the constitution was passed was not actually constitutional. The paper asks that the constitution be re-passed as it was originally presented at the end of last year, before any amendments are made. The paper has caused controversy, with some Union officers asking why this is necessary now: it is believed ICU President Stephen Brown wished to deal with this at the end of the year.

Why is it necessary?

Under the constitution in force at the time of the changes, new constitutions had to be passed by two different meetings of ICU Council with minor revisions allowed. However, some changes made between the two meetings were quite fundamental, ironically including one cutting the number of readings required to change the constitution. Most of these changes were not made clear to Council with some of them not even tracked, for example paragraphs being deleted without trace.

Council members gave the constitution their full attention at the end of last year

The original reason that the constitution had to be passed by two meetings was to allow time for reflection on the changes being made, to ensure that Council were happy with them. Introducing changes between the two readings meant that Council were unable able to reflect on the changes, and they did not have the two readings they required. Whether this was a deliberate attempt to get things through without Council having time to change them or come up with arguments against them or not is unclear.

The fact that the constitution was not changed by going through the correct process invalidates the whole document and all changes introduced in it. This means that the ICU Trustee Board was not created properly and so is not in itself valid. Re-passing the constitution will validate the document and, by extension, all changes including the Trustee Board.

Why do it now?

There appear to be two competing factions: those who want to deal with this now, and those who wish to wait until the summer when less is going on (and fewer people turn up to Council). A lot of the problems with passing the constitution last time occurred as there was very little time in which to get the changes passed, with the new constitution coming to the last two meetings of Council. There was simply no opportunity to pass any amendments twice.

Supporters of the paper would like to pass it now, so the Union will no longer be operating under an invalid constitution, that the Trustee Board is legitimate and that time can be taken on debating changes needed this year without Council having to read through hundreds of pages in the last two meetings of the year. Achieving quorum is often a problem during the summer term.

The paper calls for Council to approve the constitution un-amended twice, as the change in the number of readings was not valid. This means that the constitution will, at the earliest, be approved in February and the earliest any new amendments can be approved will be in the March meeting of Council, three days after the College Council meets. The paper's supporters have indicated that because of this, the first time the amended constitution can be presented to College Council for approval will be in July: giving ICU Council five months to ensure that the changes are made correctly.

With the problems caused by bringing major changes to last two meetings in the year last year, it may seem sensible and more democratic for the changes to be dealt with on a much smaller scale throughout the year, rather than being pushed through at the last minute. It remains to be seen if Council will take this view.

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Discussion about “Council to Re-pass Constitution?”

The comments below are unmoderated submissions by Live! readers. The Editor accepts no liability for their content, nor for any offence caused by them. Any complaints should be directed to the Editor.
1. Seb   
Jan 21 2008 12:12
 

This actually sounds like one instance where procedural hackery really does matter.

If it is the case that the constitution was not correctly passed, it would not be a good idea for the trustee board to be potentialy compromised in such a way, given it's entire reason for existing is to fulfil legal obligations.

Jan 21 2008 12:49
 

Because this is supposed to be the constitution that was passed last year... all be it with a few significant changes (or whatever)... do we have to re-read everything or just the bits that were done really badly?

As far as I understand it that most of the problems with constitution need to be rectified with these amendments to another council... and won't be discussed at this meeting?

I guess there are lots ('lots' relaltive to...?) of people who would like to propose some ammendments... can they, who's job it? If so will there be any explaination of how to do this?

Jan 21 2008 15:40
 

Because this is supposed to be the constitution that was passed last year... all be it with a few significant changes (or whatever)... do we have to re-read everything or just the bits that were done really badly?

Correct. There is no need to reread the whole constitution. In fact there is very little wrong with the content just with the way it was passed.

I guess there are lots of people who would like to propose some amendments... can they, who's job it? If so will there be any explanation of how to do this?

Any full member of the Union can propose an amendment. Simply write a paper to Council saying what you would like to change. If you would like help the President is a good place to start. It is always a good idea to consult other people (especially Councillors) if you want something to get passed.

Jan 21 2008 15:46
 

Has anybody actually read the copy Jon is presenting cover to cover...? Isn't it a little bit dangerous to just accept it...?

Jan 21 2008 15:55
 

it wont be passed, and no one can identify all the changes cos he hasnt bothered to track them

Jan 21 2008 16:00
 

Ah okay, I can see why that could be a problem, why weren't they tracked?

I spose in the case he'll just have to track the changes and re-submit the constitution to the next meeting, where council will be able to consider it properly... makes sense...

All though the article seems to suggest no real changes were made... so that seems a little petty... i was just wondering if anyboday had bothered to read it?

Jan 21 2008 17:47
 

On the tracking of changes, I was working from the pdf's available as public record and, as the previous documents had been changed, re-changed, and changed again with not all the changes in these documents being clear, I ended up re-typing the whole document from the submitted papers and minutes of the meetings, this meant that I could not have tracked changes (as the whole document would have been highlighted as a change).

There are some things in the document I am personally very unhappy with but I am not presenting changes from that which has already been approved so they have remained.

I am quite sure that people will have read the document I have presented (and apologise to them for them having to go through 74 pages of constitution written in quasi-legalese).

8. yo   
Jan 21 2008 18:01
 

of course noones read it, the constitution is a reference document. who here's read the oxford dictionary cover to cover? and if they have they need a hug or a life or some such.

9. Hmmm   
Jan 21 2008 18:05
 

I think the main point of this is...

Repassing the consitution is easier than challenging the legallity of the existing one because, if it was found to be illegal then the Union would be B*GGERED as we wouldn't have a constitution...

This isn't difficult to understand even if you don't understand how we got to this situation in the first place, council are not being asked to approve anything that hasn't already been approved...

All they are being ask to do is to vote to accept the descisions made last year (with a lot of hard work and consultation from the officers involved), again.

10. grr   
Jan 21 2008 21:10
 

No Hmmm, it is not merely accepting those decisions again. It would, in effect, be voting to agree that all the hard work last year by everyone involved in the governance review was "invalid" and "not transparent". Total BS. Thank goodness that paper wasnt passed and it was in the wrong forum as per (would you believe it) the constitution!

Kirsty's behaviour was horrendous and unproffessional. She did not allow for an intelligent debate and was detrimental to both her own and Jon's papers.

11. Hmmm   
Jan 22 2008 01:13
 

Personally I was far more offended by the majority of council's behaviour...

The people who turned up without reading the papers (and more importantly spoke against them, showing a complete lack of understanding)

The people who had already made their minds up (or allowed them to be made for them) with even listening or trying to understand the debate

The comments from certain members who spoke against the people they were there to represent

The complete lack of awareness of what council exists to achieve... no it's not just there to make your CV look pretty

To the presenter of the Iran paper, you presented your arguement well even if you had no chance of ever getting it passed in council... you should seek help from the SCC chair (lol), failing that the DPEW in order to write an original paper to RBW (not a stop the war cut and paste job), who do have the power, resourses and money to help support your cause.

Jan 22 2008 01:15
 

Stephen Brown's attitude was far more unprofessional than Kirsty Patterson's. Carrying a personal vendetta for so long is bad enough but to allow damage to the Union simply because you dislike an individual is simply unacceptable.

Jan 22 2008 08:50
 

Did Jon really expect most people to go through a fairly unintelligible 74 page document with a toothcomb given only a weeks notice, even if they did how would they have known if it was exactly the same as the current one we (think?) we're working with?

However noone was suggesting that Jon had been underhand and added or removed anything, and at least one person must have read it, so what would have been the harm in passing it now instead of dealing with it next term. Then you're sure that you're fine legally but you could leave it till next term to begin to make changes (I think).

14. um   
Jan 22 2008 10:10
 

woah, thats a very dangerous attitude

Jan 22 2008 10:50
 

"However noone was suggesting that Jon had been underhand..."

The AEB Chair did accuse the proposers of being underhand despite not having read the proposed paper. Most likely he had read none of the previous papers either, as all the CSC Chairs had to skim quickly through the Iran document before being able to comment.

16. what?   
Jan 22 2008 12:15
 

what? he didn't say they were being underhand, just that the way in which they were going about trying to solve the problem (if there is at all a problem) before anyone noticed probably wasnt the best way to go. and i agree! if there truly is anything wrong with the constitution then it needs to be dealt with properly. quite frankly though i do not believe that john collins, last years sabb team, the working group and external lawyers messed up. there is precendence for changing bits and bobs between readings. why else would you bother having two readings? the second ones to make sure you didnt miss anything the first time that still needs to be changed...

Jan 22 2008 12:28
 

have you read the two documents? They are completely different and about half the changes weren't tracked!

18. what?   
Jan 22 2008 13:40
 

umm, yeah that is true for matthews document, but i was refering to collins' last year

Jan 22 2008 13:48
 

"trying to solve the problem (if there is at all a problem) before anyone noticed probably wasnt the best way to go"...

The proposers of the constitution had noticed the problem (through having to work with the constitution and finding errors it contained) and were attempting to take steps to resolve the problem before it became serious.

Blatently evil....

20. Eugene   
Jan 22 2008 20:14
 

To those readers of Live! who are insinuating that CSC chairs aren't taking their position seriously, I'd like to make a few points:

1. We sit on Council to represent the intestest of clubs that we look after. So I hope I can be excused for not reading through the Iran paper cover to cover beforehand as I can't really see what opinions the RCC clubs would seriously have on this topic (barring individuals in the RCC with personal views)

2. You may find that CSC chairs have been asking questions in Council directly related to clubs. That's what we're there to do, just like Welfare reps would naturally take more interest in reports by the DP-EW.

3. This so called 'volunteer officer time' really is quite valuable. All the CSC chairs are still students and going to Council is only one of the tasks they are obliged to undertake. I can't speak for others, but if I'd had time, yes I would have read through Jon's proposed constitution to work out whether it was worth voting for. Unfortunately I had to settle for reading Jon's paper, then skimming the 'constitution' to make my mind up - there were no tracked changes so I didn't want to blindly vote for a document I hadn't read.

4. To whoever thinks people read papers and won't form an opinion beforehand, you're an idiot. Of course people will take a view first and then listen to the debate and see whether the points raised are strong enough to make them change their minds.

Eugene

RCC Chair

Jan 22 2008 20:35
 

"We sit on Council to represent the intestest of clubs that we look after."

Hence why the SCC Chair has publicly on two occaisions at Council spoken out against her clubs: Environmental Policy where she got bored and wanted to stop discussing it and Iran where she voted and spoke against one of her clubs before having to retract her vote because she "Just remembered that I am the SCC Chair". Perhaps not all the CSC Chairs are taking their positions quite so seriously.

22. Andy   
Jan 22 2008 21:56
 

If on the contrary had been paying attention, he/she would have realised that I didn't at any point accuse Jon of being underhand. My point was that following his proposal would seem to me like Council was trying to fix the alleged problem before anybody noticed, i.e. it would make Council's actions seem underhand. As far as I am aware, the Court exists to clear up just such problems as this, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be consulted.

I would also be grateful if on the contrary would refrain from making assumptions about my preparedness for meetings without evidence. In fact I had read all of the papers in advance, and while I had not gone through the entire re-typed constitution, I had printed myself a copy for reference. That said, I can quite understand some officers not being as prepared as perhaps they would have liked to have been. We do after all have degrees to do, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Jan 22 2008 23:36
 

Dear Observer,

If you want to discuss anything I said about the Environmental Policy please send me an email. All I'm going to say here is that I'm a bit bewildered at the comments being thrown in my direction about it - as I don't remember word-for-word what I said, nothing was minuted about what I may/may not have said, and I received no comments regarding it at the time, or at any point until the closing minutes of Council yesterday (which wasn't really warranted at the time).

About Iranian Soc, I would like to point out that they are not in the SCC - they are an OSC club. I decided to abstain as there are many Islamic societies in the SCC (although also many non-political and non-religious societies as well who wouldn't - as clubs - have an obvious view on that paper); so I abstained.

I don't want to go into some of the other points that people have raised because it's too much of a mud-slinging match already, which is precisely the sort of thing that turns a lot of students off the Union.

If people are going to criticise other officers' behaviour so openly, they should really have the guts to do so under their real names.

24. Karl   
Jan 22 2008 23:54
 

I don't want to get too involved in the arguing apart from to say that I think if people have something to say then they shouldn't be ashamed to put their name to their post. Unless of course what they have to say is either wrong or ridiculous or both.

I think it is very unfair to say that CSC chairs do not take their positions seriously. Every chair is there as a volunteer so they obviously have a very keen interest in representing their clubs interests. Sometimes not all council papers will have an impact on clubs within a certain CSC but I think all of the Chairs still take the matters seriously and try to form a reasonable opinion. I certainly took at least an hour before council this week reading all of the papers and I'm sure that other CSC chairs did the same.

Before people start to criticise CSC chairs I think people should remember just how much work they do as volunteers for the union. They have to go to CSB as well as council, hold their own exec meetings, sort out budgeting for their clubs and be generally around to help with club requests. And there's a degree to fit in as well.

Karl

Media Group Chair

Jan 23 2008 09:25
 

Was the Iran paper propsed by the Iranian Society or Stop the War Society?

If it is the former then the SCC Chair has a very good point and showed very good clarity of thought in abstaining on behalf of her religious and political clubs.

If it was the latter then Stop the War, as an SCC Club, maybe could have counted on more then just an abstain from the only person on Council representing them?

26. JJ   
Jan 23 2008 10:33
 

Mark, please read the procedural motions part of the constitution!

So what's all this precedence stuff then?

1. When can there be changes between readings?

2. How big can the changes be?

3. How much notice has to be given?

Jan 23 2008 13:44
 

1) Why was a brand new version of the constitution presented/talked about, when the paper required the present constitution repassed?

2) Our present constitution doesn't require 2 readings.

3) Union council passing a paper after college council would be totally meaningless in the legal and constitutional sense.

Jan 26 2008 11:16
 

CSC chairs represent their clubS, not any one. In theory they should convey the majority feeling of their clubs, not of any single one unless necessary.

Of course practically one has to hope that the CSC chair has the trust of the clubs, as consultation over every paper raised at council beforehand is near on impossible

29. So?   
Jan 26 2008 11:35
 

Obviously if you are thinking of taking a paper to council as a club, you should take it first to an ordinary meeting of your CSC and ask to mandate your CSC chair to vote a certain way, rather than take their support for granted.

Jan 26 2008 15:22
 

To 'A few things...'

1) According to Mstthews the constitution presented was not a brand new version.

2) As one of the things Matthews was arguing against was the change to only one reading, it would have been hypocritical of him to use this clause, no?

3) So by your logic we can never change the constitution again as it has been passed by college council already.

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