Given this talk and the previous one that caused so much controversy, I've come to the conclusion that the "Political Philosophy Society" has its own anti-West/anti-Israel axe to grind.

when's the PPS society and specifically ammar waraich going to be given an oscar for awesomeness

He's already been given one. He's got the President's Price of the SCC.

"has its own anti-West/anti-Israel axe to grind". i think the logo gives that away from the outset

i think you're both talking c**p.

give an example of the PPS grinding an axe about israel or the west

"Given this talk and the previous one that caused so much controversy, I've come to the conclusion that the "Political Philosophy Society" has its own anti-West/anti-Israel axe to grind."

PPS host many events, inviting speakers of numerous viewpoints. It would probably be best to attend one before jumping to any hasty conclusions. For instance, at the "controversial talk" you alluded to, both sides of the Israeli/Palestinan conflict were represented.

isn't this the guy who claimed "Jews rule the world by proxy" after inventing democracy, socialism and human right to gain control of all the worlds major countries? I also remember him blaming a financial crisis in Malaysia on the Jews.

Otherwise known as the SCC Prize. Shame no one from PPS bothered to show up, or send an apology, to the AGM when we announced it.

Dear All,

Thank you for the kind comments and criticisms.

Sorry about the absence from the SCC AGM but most committee had deadlines pretty much the day after.

Heres the facebook for the talk:

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=31221780572

Regards!

Yes, this is the man who said that "Jews rule the world by proxy".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuDgQrl5Eo&feature=related

i hope he doesn't ruin the talk by blaming the jews for the worlds problems

i think you are talking s**t and things out of context.

hes not a "jew hater". hes lectured before and ive heard his talks which are sensible and well reasoned. stop being tits.

assuming that the video link is not a fake video

how are his comments out of context?

and how are his comments not anti-jewish?

and in light of what he says in the video why isn't he a jew hater

Tun Mahathir spoke the truths without being a jew hater or anti-semitics. But the truths hurt especially to those who invented stuff like 'anti-semitism' for any criticisms against jews/israel.

"they [jews] invented socialism communism, HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY so that PERSECUTING them would APPEAR to be wrong"

this statement, that he said in the video above, is anti-semitic and shows his prejudice against jewish people.

furthermore, the statement isn't true.

furthermore these so called 'truths' are nothing more than the widespread prejudice against jewish people within the muslim community (of which i'm a member).

if this so called 'truth speaker' comes to imperial and spouts bullocks similar to your post, i will be sorely disapointed

Personally I feel honoured he attributed democracy, socialism and human rights as a Jewish invention!

This guy's comments are totally racist and I wouldn't go see him but he has the right to freedom of speech (thanks to the jews according to him!!).

Anyone who thinks he isn't racist is seriously deluded because unlike other anti-semites he doesn't even try and hide it by saying 'Zionists' instead of 'Jews'.

http://www.iht.com/articles/1997/10/11/malay.t.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3196234.stm

This guy is clearly a racist, im surprised he's allowed to speak here.

Hi All.

Just got an email informing me people are complaining about our decision to host Dr Mahathir.

Let me clarify a few things - when the Ramadhan foundation approached us with an offer to host Dr Mahathir, a former PM of a country, to talk on the issue of criminalising war the PPS was very happy to host him.

We frankly do not care what he has said before and certainly we would not have hosted him if he wanted to have a seminar on why Jews rule the world. The topic is criminalising war.

Ramadhan foundation, who brought us the contact, has insisted their chairman Mohamad Umar also be allowed to have a word on his speciality of Islam and the West co-existing, so if anything it will be a constructive dialogue.

For our religion and politics week next year, we are trying to invite Daniel Pipes who is a foremost public critic of Islam – which is my personal chosen way of life and very close to my heart.

I am sure many fellow Muslims may log onto Live! if that happens and call the PPS racist and Islamophobic and express their surprise at us allowing him to speak at IC (they already did so when we removed Tamimi during Israel/Palestine)

But they will be doing what you lot are doing: failing to bring your intellect to the table in the face of an invitation to listen and accept/reject or discuss. It is exactly what we saw during Israel/Palestine, especially from the Jewish media. It is exactly what we see here with all the scaremongering and posting links from the safety of aliases.

If you have some moral fibre, instead of hiding behind your computers come to our events and get engaged in the debate whether it be on the Holocaust during our Genocide Awareness Week or The Environment – which was our first ever event; whether it be on Somalia and Ethiopia during our Conflict Case Study Week or whether indeed it be thorny issues like Israel/Palestine; Islam; and even Zionism and the media.

If you don’t have the capacity to discuss these issues publicly, then please at least do not hide behind fake names and criticise.

The PPS reserves the right to call on any speaker it chooses to in its endeavour to promote a free and fair dialogue, whether they be Azzam Tamimi or whether they be Daniel Pipes; whether they be Dr Mahathir or whether they be George Bush.

Kind Regards,

Ammar Waraich

Chair, ICU-PPS

PS. George Galloway will be in the audience on Friday

Bravo Ammar. Its important that the great and brave Tun Mahathir be heard on this issue of 'Criminalising War' especially now that blatant lies were being used to justify invading sovereign nations. It won't be surprising though that his arguments, however lucid, are lost on those who wished to shut him up for whatever reasons, but mainly because of their prejudices on him.

boris is clearly a racist, im surprised he's allowed to stand for mayor with his watermelon smile comments

like i said, talking s**t and taking things out of context.

good on ya amar, pps is doing good stuff

Have we not managed to hang George Galloway for treason yet? It is surely what he deserves...

well, given what it says on ammar's facebook, the pps could well just advocating be anti-western bs propaganda

it's time college and the police cracked down on these people

' [Excerpts of the 16th Surah - Al Nahl (The Bee) ] - The Qur'an.

"God has brought you forth from your mothers' wombs knowing nothing - but He has endowed you with hearing, and sight, and minds, so that you might have cause to be grateful.

But one Day We shall raise up a witness out of every community, whereupon they who were bent on denying the truth will not be allowed to plead ignorance, and neither will they be allowed to make amends.

And when they who were bent on evildoing behold the suffering that awaits them, they will realize that it will not be lightened for them by virtue of their pleading; and neither will they be granted respite.

And on that Day will they who had thus been sinning, belatedly proffer their surrender to God; and all their false imagery will have forsaken them.

Upon all who were bent on denying the truth and who turned others away from the path of God will We heap suffering upon suffering in return for all the corruption that they wrought: for one Day We shall raise up within every community a witness against them from among themselves.

BEHOLD, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good, and generosity towards one's fellow-men; and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, as well as envy. He exhorts you repeatedly so that you might bear all this in mind.

Do not barter away your bond with God for a trifling gain! Verily, that which is with God is by far the best for you, if you but knew it.

All that is with you is bound to come to an end, whereas that which is with God is everlasting.

And most certainly shall We grant unto those who are patient in adversity their reward in accordance with the best that they ever did.

As for anyone - be it man or woman - who does righteous deeds, and is a believer withal - him shall We most certainly cause to live a good life and most certainly shall We grant unto such as these their reward in accordance with the best that they ever did.

And yet, behold, thy Sustainer grants His forgiveness unto those who forsake the domain of evil after having succumbed to its temptation,and who thenceforth strive hard in God's cause and are patient in adversity: behold, after such repentance thy Sustainer is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!

Be conscious, then, of the Day when every human being shall come to plead for himself alone, and every human being shall be repaid in full for whatever he has done, and none shall be wronged.

Endure, then, with patience all that they who deny the truth may say - always remembering that it is none but God who gives you the strength to endure adversity's' - and do not grieve over them, and neither be distressed by the false arguments which they devise: for, verily, God is with those who are conscious of Him and are doers of good withal." '

The statement "Jews rule the world by proxy" only 0.00001 of his whole speech,but the west only like to focus on it. I am sorry to say but it is fact.

And if George Bush said in a speech "Muslims are terrorists", most of the Muslim world would be out burning flags, throwing petrol bombs at western embassies and generally focussing on it, even if it was 0.00001 of his whole speech.

It's the controversial stuff people remember.

Yes thank you. That is up for anyone to read and you can even pick up a Quran in the bookshop and save yourself the hassle of stalking me. I am not ahsamed to be Muslim.

Nobody was there to complain of anti-western propaganda when we invited the Jewish Film Festival and Ruth Barnett to discuss the Holocaust in GAW. No one complained of propaganda when we invited Mark Lynas to lecture on the Environment. Nobody called us racist when we discussed Political Philosophy during our weekly politics seminars.

If you wish to spread false rumours, please at least be just.

Yes, I am not doubting that what Mahathir said was controversial. The PPS does not agree with the views of any of its speakers. We invite them to address topics. Full stop.

The topic this time is War! I can understand why some people on campus may feel bad about his comments, but like I said, if he wanted to give a seminar on Judaism, we would not invite him.

sorry that you've received complaints about inviting this man to speak.

i have no doubt that the talk will be interesting and his statements on the jews does not mean that he shouldn't be invited to speak.

but you can't blame people for criticising him and you certainly can't expect a speaker's previous comments not to be brought up at an event, considering that his comments were of the jewish conspiracy type

No, I don't blame anyone and I understand the apprehension surrounding his visit.

It is sad he made those comments in the first place.

Let there be no doubt, PPS certainly brings a lot of excitement and thought provoking debate to the table and as Imperialites we should be ever grateful for the likes of Ammar Waraich and his committee who endeavour tirelessly to maintain such a vibrant and dynamic exchange of ideas and viewpoints - be it in creating awareness of global issues and challenges such as climate change or by giving the oppressed peoples of the world a hope of a renewed voice, which was long stamped out by overbearing powers or systems - truly a grand vision that stands to defend humanity and its most fundamental rights, a vision that goes beyond the controls of a few greed infested and power hungry individuals and certainly beyond the agendas of certain interest groups - by in large it seems the culture of fostering debate, positive criticism and greater transparency has been welcomed by the wider Imperial community and I hope that PPS team continues to walk this tight rope and maintain a healthy balance ...

... If anything these courageous people have taken on true western ideals and have upheld the values of our forbearers, perhaps some of us in the upheaval of the moment have really forgotten what it means to be western, or just how much was sacrificed, just for this, so keep up the good work and I think I speak for many when I say, continue to bring us all exciting and innovative events and programmes for the greater good and benefit ...

... as for the whining old anoraks and stale breathe smelling scientists and engineers whose senses of discernment have been long overwhelmed and laid to waste by the deadly toxic mix of red bull and power plus pills ... they will always be!

Its encouraging to see that there are some strong opinions around.

But please, remember that your quarrel is with the speaker and not the chairman.

Take your arguements to the event and make it a worthwhile debate. Opportunities to discuss with such high profile figures are rare. Regardless or what you think of the speaker, to exchange your opinions with them is a privilage. Make the most of it.

And please don't attack Ammar personally, he is acting in a proffesional role and is doing his job very well if you ask me.

(and yes, I am a PPS member)

x

Truth of the matter is that most Malaysians (which would have been the bulk of your audience) are only interested in the Malaysian politics discourse.

I highly doubt your Q&A would be centered around criminalising war or even anything remotely anti-Semitic.

The last time Anwar Ibrahim came to LSE to speak on 'Islam and the West', 90% of the 400+ audience were Malaysians and there were only two genuine questions on the titled presentation, the rest regarding Malaysian politics.

Ammar & Co. should have known better and leveraged this truth when negotiating with IC authorities.

It is still not too late.

p.s. See how a handful of comments have ruined it for the hundreds of us who were highly looking forward to this? Just to show that comments need not be 'anti-Semitic' to be destructive and damaging. I doubt many of you were planning on going in the first place and now you've prevented hundreds others from going. Great.

Its extremely hyprotical and ironic for IC to bar non IC audiences. Its essentially a clam down on free speech. Isn't western society always beseeching others about how free speech is important, and a basic human right and stuff like that? By not allowing everyone access to a speech, is essentially not following that ideal.

As usual, this is just another example of western hypocritism. So the Danish can draw cartoons of Prophet Muhammed, and now the Jews in IC are worried about some anti-semitic comments?

IC, being a centre of higher learning, should have dealt with this in a more mature way. To bar people in the last minute? I am unsure of what the legalism behind the issue is, but what are they trying to achieve? ridicule for themselves and ultimately the Jews?

And to those people who hide behind psudonyms and call Mahathir a racist and say he should not be allowed to speak at IC, come on. Wake up! When China tries to clamp down on dissenters, who makes the most noise? Who keeps critising the press in Singapore for being state controlled?

If you want to do stuff like that, wake up, be an adult and take the mud yourselve. When someone comes to speak in your own so-called ' free speech ' nation, you bar his audience?!?! you worry about anti semetic comments when the topic is on War?

Dear All,

As an active committee member of PPS, I am very surprised and to some degree disappointed to read some of the comments posted on this page. I was actually thinking of posting a comment here a few days ago but exam prep and course work was in the way ;(

Anti-Western???? Anti-Israel???? Anti-Semitic??? PPS ????? NOWAYS !!!!!. The only agenda PPS has is really not to have any bias or political view. When I become a committee member of PPS I joined because we had a vision: To present all sides of the story relating to politics.

Sadly, this vision is apparently harder to realise than first imagined!!!

During the Genocide Awareness Week, our committee worked very hard to organize a complete event on the Holocaust. We had the great honour of having Ms. Ruth Barnett, a holocaust survivor, to come to Imperial and talk about her experiences.

During the Israel/Palestine debate:

Our only intention was to present both sides of the story and to better understand were the fundamental difference of thinking was between these two ‘extreme’ groups.

Honestly, I feel very uncomfortable writing this, the apparent need to prove that PPS does not have an anti-Semitic/ anti-western agenda. Please come and talk to any of the members of PPS if you have any questions.

Ammar is doing a fantastic job! It is not an easy task to organize events of this scale (esp. during this time of year!!) and to attack his religious views is just distasteful!!! Every person has right to his belief and his way of life!

I am very disappointed at Imperial’s decision, not to allow external people for event. In my view Imperial College, an educational institution, is restricting the access to information!!!!!!! Why?

I was just thinking …. Say, If we get George Bush to come to Imperial. Then would we have reacted in the same way? He has certainly said a few things that he probably shouldn’t have ..like:

"This CRUSADE, this war on terrorism is gonna take awhile”

However, as we don’t have any agenda or bias, it is FUNDAMENTALY WRONG for us to stop any speaker to speak his/her point of view (provided he/she is legal ;) ).

Thanks for reading this :)

M. Mansoor Hamayun

PPS

like i said, talking s**t and taking things out of context.

err. does this need updating? Have the "Jews in IC" actually tried to get the speaker banned?

Or is it the usual overreaction from the Muslims towards challenging questions which they perceive as "western hypocritism" (lol)?

Apparently the committee members are aware of something that the rest of us are not.

With reference to the change of plans and limiting the talk to only Imperial College students (in the last minute).

I have to express my disappointment at such a decision as many of us (non-Malaysians included) have been planning to attend the talk for weeks. Travel and accommodation plans now need to be cancelled. As students, any short trips to London were bound to cost money, but such an important event - a discussion close to many hearts cannot be missed. This is not the first controversial talk about crimilazing war held in the UK.

Many of us understand the reasons of limiting attendees at the last minute (xenophobia, security issues etc.) and hope in the future the University as hosts have more faith in the organizers to plan such important peaceful platforms of free speech.

As a Malaysian myself, I acknowledge the fact that a lot of Malaysians would turn up to the talk with a different agenda especially after the recent elections. However, I, for one, would love to go and hear what he has to say on this topic. I may not agree with all of his views but you have to accept that he is one of the VERY few leaders in the world who have the guts to stand up and say things against the "bullying" nations. I would have loved to be able to go, listen, contemplate and thus gain a better understanding of his stance as well as my own opinion towards it.

sadly, not being an Imperial Student means I wont experience it, and my question, thoughts and comments won't be heard.

the PPS sound like they are doing a very good job, ensuring all sides are represented as well as getting very known and influential speakers. It sounds like you're only being held back by the narrow views of the student populace you cater to.

Being IC based, thats just sad.

I look forward to any future talks organised by PPS with the hope that I will be allowed entry next time :)

It seems as though someone in college has freaked out because:

• hundreds of non-IC people were set to descend on SAF for the event
• George Galloway will be there (IMO, whenever he's around, trouble follows!)

So College have said they're limiting it to IC people only - presumably SAF will be on swipe access this evening...

What's going on in Malaysia at the moment that means so many Malaysians want to turn up to ask him questions about it?

im malaysian..and for ur info..he is great leader that i havent seen bfore..when he gv a speech..everybody will concentrate listening..every single words he talk its sincere from his heart...he is not a hypocrite like others.everybody hv their own freedom to talk..y dont u all just listen n think k..dont judge him anti jewist or what..he is not like that..he talk bcoz he know who is rite n wrong..

thanks

I think most of you here dont know who is actually Dr. Mahathir? He was not only PM of Malaysia but also a great politician. Sure he know what is happening in this world better than u all and he dare to speak against anyone. Just look at this simple example. Israel was only a small country in early 1900s but now you can look at the world map and compare yourself. Why dont just give out some part of your country to them if you think they are damn good. Think. Simple.

Tun Dr Mahathir one is one of the most brilliant leader in the world. everyone shud go n see him talk if one had the chance ;)

Actually Israel didn't exist in the 1900s, if it did we would have probably never had a holocaust. But that's beside the point, Dr. Mahathir made comments about Jews as well Israel. There is nothing wrong with being critical of Israel but when a person critical of Israel starts being racist towards Jews he automaticly discredits his own camp, since his motives for being critical of Israel are questioned.

I agree that Dr. Mahathir is a great politician, many great politicians found scapegoats to blame when things go wrong. Similarly he may speak from the heart and and may not be a hypocrite but those characteristics don't disprove that he is racist

live! updates from your man on the ground...

Quite a large Security presence here tonight, John. Got 2 blokes manning the stairs, 1 on the ground entrance to LT1 and another milling around.

It's all quiet so far, the lecture is in progress.

ALARM! Someone may have tried to enter from the back of the building. Probably not though, that thing goes off all the bloody time.

Some girls in headscarves sitting around looking bored outside (shoulda got into IC, love!).

And that's all the weather...

a great event, its a pity more people couldn't attend

amaar should be knighted!

hey zack,

dun try to make some prejudgement that we do not know who is mahathir. for god's sake, we know him well. we know him so well that we can name all of his lies and crimes he committed throughout 22 years in power. yes, he knows the world better, but from his own perspective. he is always right, never wrong. NEVER! Yes, he dare to speak against anyone but the problem is he doesnt allow people to speak against him. He was originally from a minority ethnic group in Malaysia, how the hell could he become the PM of Malaysia without championing the cause of another race? Why don't you just let him be the king in Malaysia if you think he is damn good? think. simple.

Ammar should be made TUN

A secret fan :)

A bit more info on what went on with the event: http://live.cgcu.net/news/1745

Real shame brought on college. Well done JSoc!

Dr M wasnt 100% perfect, but he made the right calls when the east asian economic crisis threatened to castrate his country.

For a malaysian statesman to say something strong against israel, is not the same as a european, who has previous history in annihilation of the jews in europe. It is very different indeed.

The anti semetic charge is clumsy, wrong headed, incredibly reactionary and juvenile. Used in such this way there is no perceivable positive effect on the universe. unless silencing the anti war voice is in any universe a positive thing.

Also this reflects badly on college. How many thousands of malaysian students did he send here over the years? Any bean counter in sherfield should be able to work out what that means.

maybe College authorities... (hmm i dunno... Tidu maini still around) will have giant eggs on their faces next time they go selling their wares abroad.

Jsoc should apologise for the mistake.

hey kcaz,

u dont have to claim tat u know Dr M, cz from all ths tgs u sed, we definitely know tat u dont. *wink*

Guys, we welcome contributions from new people on here, but could you please try to write in something resembling correct English? You are, after all, supposed to be university students and a number of posts make no sense (especially 51).

I think that reads:

"You don't have to claim that you know Dr M, because from all those things [that] you said, we definitely know that you don't."

I also think that the un-readability was meant to be ironic and aimed at kcaz.

What makes you so sure they are university students anyway?

I'm sure the unreadability of 51 was not deliberate. I had assumed that the people posting were from the Facebook event, which is predominantly people from other UK universities. However, looking at the logs it appears they are in fact posting from Malaysia and Indonesia (but may still be university students)...

For the sake of Ashley....Post 51 translated

Hey Kcaz

You don't have to claim that you know Dr Mahathir Mohamad, because from all the things you said, we definitely know that you don't.

*wink*

(Not sure exactly how to translate the wink.....)

I'm a Malaysian living in Malaysia who has seen the development of the country made during the Mahathir years, his political opponents notwithstanding. I suggest people come to Malaysia to see this for themselves. His being outspoken cannot, by itself,be objectionable to the people in USA and Europe.What he has been saying may not be so palatable to them because it rejects many popular notions held by them. But isn't this freedom of speech ? Mahathir represents the moderate voice of Islam. The true teaching of Islam does not deny the right of others to exist. Mahathir gives a different perspective to all the existing worldly conflicts. Since none of the approach being taken to solve them has yet to succeed, why don't they scrutinise what he says, objectively, and see if his suggestions are worth trying ?

Dr. Mahathir is a great man. He knows what his doing and he doing the right things. There is some reason why he did in 22 years of Malaysian CEO. Within 22 years, the west is really hate him because of his big mouth. They really affraid of his big mouth. If you from outside from Malaysia, don't judge him what his do for Malaysia. Some said that Dr. Mahathir not allow people to criticis him while he been Malaysia CEO. Ok, if you a leader, do you like to be criticis??? Of course not. But if they want to spoke against him, in Malaysia (during Dr. Mahathir time) they have to follow the heirarcy. On the other hand, he teach Malaysian people to be a person that follow the system and used our mind to think before doing something wrong. Not be a "barbarian".

Whenever you hear of a country's leader being described as "great", I automatically switch off.

And the idea of having to follow a hierarchy to speak against ones leader automatically fills me with dread.

hey kcaz...

actually Dr mahathir from majority ethnic group in malaysia which is malay.do you know anything about malaysia??or your general knowledge is very pathetic.which college you from btw?????

I think really when hosting such a controversial event, it's really the PPS' fault for not discussing this with college. When you expect large numbers of non students with speakers that could well incite heated debate, at worst anger or violence, someone up the chain of command is bound to read the riot act. I don't know they're expressing so much regret- it's their own fault. Maybe a ticketing arrangement would have been better?

I love free speech, but quite frankly, as a medic I have to use SAF and live around the college. I'd prefer it safe and secure with or without free speech.

As for the whole "racist" issue, I agree that one comment shouldn't preclude someone from speaking again. But this will bring problems if this courtesy isn't extended continuously and without fear or favour...and judging by previous last minute swap arounds of lineups to get the biggest crowds, I can't see this happening.

Tun Dont worry. Just carry on what u are doing. peoples are just jealous of u.Take care Tun.

Congratulation Tun... carry on.. u are very brilliant and brave man in the world...

The fool who said that IC should somehow be grateful to all the malaysian students studying here is clearly ignorant of economics and the basics of modern democratic stable civilisations- the type absent in all the Islamic dictatorships and the system that subversive elements now in Briatin are seeking to destroy. The pittance paid by these foreign studients does not compensate for the centuries of investment, in science, education, engineeering and infrastructure as well as the "infrastructure of progress"- namely our tolerant judeo-christian democracy- that has allowed Britain to develop top class universities. It is much like the Oil-rich Arabs who come here for medical treatment- they may pay a lot of money but it is nothing compared to the centuries of time, money and education that this country and civilisation has spent in creating the institutions they come here to use and which are absent in their countries.

Mahatir is a vile racist, he is a supporter of the 9 11 atrocities and his record in power is one of shame. Instead of attacking Israel- fighting against genocidal dictatorships- or American defence of its homeland- perhaps he could attack the mistreatment of indigenous non-muslim minorities in his region- or the millions opressed by Islamic fundamentalists in Sudan, The Lebanon, East Timor, Serbia, Kashmir, Ethiopia,etc etc....

He has no place visiting us here and if I were a Malaysian student studying at IC I would be very very ashamed that such a man is here giving an even worse impression of their country and making them out to be pretty ungrateful to this country and our great institution.

IC student, u should be ashamed yourself for what you have written: vile and demostrating total ignorance. You should also be ashamed of your western heritage which plundered the wealth of rest of the world on which they build your so called 'infrastructure of progress' and civilisation. Mahathir's is just one small but brave voice standing up to the satanic world order that your 'judeo-christian' democracy is forcing upon the world. As a Malaysian I am very proud to have such a man being invited everywhere by those who were keen to listen to what he has to say, you denying him that liberty notwithstanding. Talk about being democratic.

Yeah, blame the Jews! No wait, blame the Americans! No wait, blame the British Empire! Hang on, they are all in it together! Blame everybody who does not agree with us!

Ahem

talk about cheek number 65- if you hate the West and our values so much why on earth are you here? You are, like many of your compatriots it seems, biting the hand that feeds you. Why dont you study in a University in an Arab country-oh wait- the few that exist are not very good. Indeed there were some good ones but they were essentially destroyed when you ethnically cleansed all the Jews and Christians living there! As to our society being built on plunder and conquest- again what hypocrisy- Islam was spread by the sword by marauding armies- THAT IS A FACT. It spread by conquest and plunder. Its prophet himself was a fighter. Its original followers were beduin plunderers who lived off the spoils of the city dwellers they plundered. Islam then spread by sea piracy- your attack on the West is completely hypocritcal. Also the values of secular liberal democrcacies that were formed after the Reformation form the foundations of the industrial revolution and the cornerstone of Western, Judeo-Christian civilisation and progress. While Mahatir is allowed to come to Britain and speak and attack our great nation and our allies, no such freedom exists in his country or the other Islamic dicatorships. Indeed Israelis- the only modern civilised people in the Mid East cannot even enter Malaysia. I guess this is not surprising when the Islamic religion bars all non muslims from a 5 mile radius of Mecca and Medina; yet there is total religious (perhaps too much from the reaction of number 65 and his friends) for all religions in Rome and Jerusalem, the Christian and Jewish capitals respectively....

Nobody hates the west here, your values are yours, our ae ours, but your hatred and ignorance of Islam showed very clearly. Nobody feeding us, we pay for our upkeeps and studies (at blatantly inflated prices), so theres no question of handbiting. I maintain that the west, for having colonised us for so many centuries and having looted our countries, still owes us gargantuans... which you can never repay us till the end of days. Many of our countries in the third world are still suffering for it.

So, us coming here learning whatever knowledge that you have built upon those that the Muslims scholars had accumulated (during your dark ages) is but chicken feeds in term of costs to you, if theres any. A lot of us also went to study in Arab countries, who says they are not good. We go to wherever there are knowledge to be learned. Now, is whats happening in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine something you called spreading your secular liberal democracies by peaceful means??

Actually numbers are a funny thing - I prefer 67 both in content and year- what a great year that was perhaps 2008 will bode well too with the downfall of Iran’s crazed dictator-? Time will tell. Now for a quick history lesson.

The West didn’t colonise the Muslim world, indeed it was the Arabs that did- by invading and forcing the indigenous people to accept their religion or dhimmi status or death...

The "Muslim" scholars, in the period known to Europe, as the dark ages, were by the large part Jews and some Christians living in the Muslim territories as dhimmis. There were some Turks but practically no Arabs-even though they made up the majority of the population. The Middle Eastern lands were largely occupied by the Brits and The French only after world war one when the Ottoman Empire Collapsed so you cannot call these 20-30 yrs “centuries”.

BTW the Decay in those countries is largely due to Arab nationalism, part inspired by Nazism btw (see for example the story of Haj Amin Al husseini) as the Arabs gained independence- something they essentially had not had for 1000 years . It seems they were better off being ruled by Turks or brits or french... etc. The massive oil wealth discovered by the European powers has been given to all these countries but they have used it for evil. Terror, war mongering and even the recent rise in food prices across the world are a result of their control of oil that is bleeding the world dry. Why have they not invested this money in education? Why have they not fed their masses? Why are millions of Egyptians threatening to riot because they don’t have enough money for bread? Why is the Arab world and their Islamic allies helping with the genocide of Darfur? Why are the Saudis funding terrorists worldwide and building centres for indoctrination instead of centres for learning?

I will not go on to talk about South East Asia- this could fill volumes but only to say that while the role of the British there was mixed they did more good than bad - I mention this as Malaysia was the subject of discussion.

As to today, again briefly, in Iraq one group of Arabs is killing another on a larger scale but in the time old tradition of Arabia. Indeed the Shia and the Sunni- who are murdering each other share a long history of such internecine violence and the Shia religion itself was founded on the murder of their leader (or Kaliph as in replacement “khulafa” leader to the prophet Mohammed) by what became the Sunnis. This has very little to do with the West. As to Afghanistan again such violence between Karzai and the Taleban and the various alliances is also a problem based on violent indigenous clans and has little to do with the West. As to "Palestine" , Western Palestine (78% of the British League of Nations Mandate for the Jewish National Home) is controlled by the Hashemite monarchy and called Jordan as to the remainder, well Israel is a great example of progress and freedom and Gaza and Judea and Samaria- at least the bit under the control of the Hamas and the PLO- serve as yet further examples of Arab terrorism, fanaticism and the exploitation of the Arab states....not exactly helping your arguments really?

I would write more but this really is enough... I would just point out that, modestly, I am far more acquainted with Islamic history and religion than you are and perhaps it would do well for you to study a bit before commenting. I would also recommend that before you continue to bite the hand that feeds you- the money you pay here in fees is pittance to the billions we have spent over the centuries to build our society, that you acquaint yourself with knowledge of our society and learn ways to try and influence your co-religionists from within to abandon violence and bigotry and seek a better future.... If you like I can suggest some reading material. Glad to be of help.

NB. I meant Eastern not Western- when referring to Jordan above.

What you just spouted again proven your ignorance of Islamic history, world history and whats gong on now under the western hegemonic war-mongering leaderships. What you did was simply regurgating what you have read from books by orientalists who were so pathologically anti-Islam, they will distort anything to put Islam and thus Muslim in the worst possilbe light. Of course the history that you read were also the one written by people seeking to justify and hide all the horrendous crimes they perperated on the third world/their colonies. These crimes are still happening now (thus Mahathir's unsung efforts to criminalise them). But you are blind to these facts because you have been so brainwashed by the current 'masters' of the world. Sorry, you are beyond help.....