This is a totally underhand move. MSS had already agreed to be spokesman of Islamic soc!

I heard that they are going to bring in George Galloway soon as he is going to have a lot of time on his hands...

I think you mean "doing time"!!!

If Sen grows a moustache, as suggested, he would look more like Mugabe than Saddam.

i thought MSS had agreed to be spokesman for the palestinian society

yet another "discussion" full of (2) racist scumbags...

Yes it appears that Herr n/a has entered .

Pity that guy didn't blow up that bus in Bremen today. naybe herr n/a would be less sanctimonious. To amram- I think your'e great keep it up man!!

Good article... Immature discussion. Grow Up.

Would have been a good article had it not been so predictable!

I think someone in the Iraqi embassy thread already suggested a link to comical ali's website ages ago.

I agree, Herr n/a is awfully immature...

I think n/a would say "ordnung muss sein!"

oh and Joel don't mention the war - he's likely to have a little rant and rave...

"he's likely to have a little rant and rave..."

Ermm, who was it who started the war discussions?

amram, glad you've found another alias in Joel. Just as long as you don't try posting s**t under my name again, that's fine...

Chris: I'll gladly take the blame for starting a war discussion in the other thread, as I take offence at the concept that amram's argument-free and insult-rich racist utterings could be described as "discussion" in the first place.

To n/a

I don't need aliases you paranoid fool.

I have just heard on Sky that the Hijacker on the Bus back in the Vaterland was an "Islamic Radical". Joel was right. I wonder how the Huns would feel if they had Arabs blowing up their buses?

Maybe Joschka Fischer would spend less time drinking tea with Arafat.

Frankly it's a pity the A-bomb wasn't completed until after the Nazis surrendered...

By the way did you know that ALL the Chemists and Physicist that worked on the Manhattan project were Jews, most of whom had escaped hitler?

n/a do you have no shame??

helloe I vould like to tell ze world that I am really Bruno. You can see me on Osterreicher Fernseher mit Ali G!

This is just getting petty beyond belief. Please, find another forum and continue to score points of each other there. I'm pretty sure it's just getting tiresome for everyone else that's all.

"Frankly it's a pity the A-bomb wasn't completed until after the Nazis surrendered..."

oh great... you've advocated genocide... i have SOOOO much more respect for you now. </sarcasm>

"By the way did you know that ALL the Chemists and Physicist that worked on the Manhattan project were Jews, most of whom had escaped hitler?"

Really? So Jews are nasty nasty mass murderers are they? Go figure... It's funny because i have this great book of the collected essays of Hans A. Bethe and selected essays written by others in response, all on the subject of the Manhattan project and it's wider implications. Nowehere in that book does it say "lets nuke the Nazis", in fact most essays argue against the actual use of the bomb. Also nowhere in that book does it mention anything about Islamism. I conclude that most of the Scientists writing of that time don't give a s**t about the racism and latent anger that seems to run through your personality Amram...

Just to be strictly accurate, *most* of the major leaders of the Manhattan project were jews, most left Germany, but all of the money, technical help and backup came from the United States, a country without nationalised religion. It's not a jewish thing per se. it's more an American desire for power and world domination.

firstly, the Nazis were more deserving of the A bomb than the Japanese- secondy while I may have been advocating genocide of the nazis they were PRACTICING it. thirdly,I used to subscribe to the thoery that it would be wrong to drop the A bomb as many of the people killed would be innocents , however, and this was the point i was making , listening to Herr n/a, one wonders if this is really true. Here is a "leftwing" German youth living in 2003, who has no shame. He openly supports Fascist dictators like Saddam who carry out genocide , considers the UK and US evil for getting rid of such a tyrant, and also mentions how he ias great fan of Arafat , the PLO terrorist leader who openly calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and a holocaust mark 2.

If Herr, n/a is typical of Germans and I hope he is not, then yes I do stand by my original point, it was a pity the Nazis weren't nuked instead of the Japs 60 yrs ago!

crikey. is the day of the frivolous thread truly dead? there truly are some muppets around at the moment.

Der kluegere gibt nach....

Und tschuess!

It is completely disgusting to consider where better the A-bomb should have been used. Innocent Germans didn't deserve to die any more than the Japanese. If opposing military action is a cause for death than amram, your world sounds no better than life under a tyrant.

Amram: Find me quotes to support the following comments about N/A that you made:

"He openly supports Fascist dictators like Saddam"

"mentions how he ias great fan of Arafat"

The world is not so black and white that if you don't support action against someone, you are supporting them.

To chris, am happy to supply you with a host of quotations from n/a:

On Israel

?I thought Yasser Arafat, winner of a fully justified Nobel Peace Prize, is the leader of the PLO? I support a free Palestine. If the PLO is the only face such an entity could have, then yes, I support the cause of the PLO.?

?I did not even mention modern day's uncontested Hitler-Alike-Politician-Contest winner, Ariel Sharon, did I??

how nice. Herr n/a has no shame.

"[Iraq] will soon have its star on the American flag."

a conspiracy theorist too!

?There are dozens of evil megalomaniac undemocratic regimes in the world, including GW Bush among others, who after all won the election by means of election fraud in Florida?

slightly mentally unstable - don't you think?

?If the people were really that eager to be free, they'd topple Saddam themselves,?

he then gives us this other pearl of wisdom:

?Iraqis evidently did not even feel ready to do that even after American troups were all over Iraq, and they could expect backing. Which suggests, all in all, that Saddam was more popular than the Americans over there...) ?

Then back to the conspiracies:

?Oil. Ammunition. Reconstruction. America seems to be using this war to fire up their own economy. A certain A. Hitler tried the same in 1939.?

Oh, now Bush is hitler.

He then adds:

?I feel kinda foolish?

Well that's because he is a fool!

You have FAR too much time on your hands Amram - don't you have some exams to revise for or something?

But nowhere in those quotes was he supporting Saddam

Can we please leave this conversation alone, or at least do it on a relevant forum. I am fully in favour of open discussion regarding controvercial issues but what is this one actually achieving? Think what else you could have done with the precious minutes you spent typing arguments for and against genocide and facist regemes etc... Surely life is to short!

It's more a case of responding to each libel message 'Amram' posts but yeah, I agree - the discussions are neither discussions nor about the article.

You can't really discuss something when people on each side of the argument think they are right and won't be persuaded either way.

But Life shouldn't be so short people are apathetic.

plagiarism is the highest form of flattery.

I wonder if college believes in this too....

OK, some people have some serious issues here. I'm not even sure how you get from a mediocre frivolous article written when bored by medicine to what you guys have gotten on to, but it's both scary and rude, so why don't you go and find a nice new message board to play on - like http://www.virtualpalestine.org/communicate/wwwthreads/

Mr Heeps, you get there from the Iraqi Embassy Siege "discussion" and the two shockingly racist suggestions that islamic society / palestinian society are fundamentally dishonest and would welcome & require the assistance of a notorious liar...

In short, you get there because people try to provoke a reaction by being completely offensive.

I still stand by my earlier suggestion that registration should be required before posting comments is allowed. That would have the added advantage of potential user deletion for behaviour like the one displayed by a few people here...

I hate to say this mr(s) n/a but a suggestion to force people to post under their own accounts is a little rich coming from an anonymous alias.

But Amram is an alias aswell

Yes well aside from Andy's suggestion you lot may be interested to know that the London Student weblog now contains a 'Palestine Diary' from a Queen Mary student working as a peace activist in the West Bank.

London Student now also have a comment feature which would presumably keep you lot busy.

Sam, I do not think the e-mail addresses should be displayed, just required to register. Of course the usernames would be anonymous....

Anyway. I thought about it. While it is enormously satisfying to try and express the old excuse "He started it! Bwuaaaaaaaah!", I realized that I'm probably little better as I've taken the bait and replied. I'll avoid getting so easily annoyed in the future, or at least try to... Time to grow up!

To Mr. President some facts:

1. These people are PLO/other Arab terrorist group sympathisers at best. to cal them "peace acttivists" is disgusting.I don't see them standing in front of Israeli cafes discos , Pizza parlours or Bus stations as "human shields" all they do is prevent IDF soldiers destroying terror bases and the houses of such suicide scum.

2. There is no such place as Palestine.

To n/a it is not racist to suggest that IC islam soc and Pal soc are liars it is simply true. There is nothing racist in this sentiments. If i were to say you were a fool that would not be racist just a statement of fact backed up by the puerile responses you give.

Indeed the Pal soc- see other thread- was not exactly viewed as being a reputable society by the SCC itself. I went- in disguise- to one of their meetings on Jenin.I did not say anything- but did obsereve a jewish student (I think he was at least) get heckled by the rabidly racist audience. I actually heard one guy shout "when are we gonna get rid of the Jews". apart from that though the talk was a tissue of lies and hate propaganda. I actually sat at the back and decided to leave about 3/4 of the way thorugh because it was a farce.The guy repeated the BIG LIE that there was a massacre there.

Listen muslims be honest- I would respect you more if you were. Say that you really want an entirely Islamic mid east and Israel therefore has no place in your eyes why lie about it and make up lies about non existent atrocities carried out by Israel. Apart from anything else this is bloody hypocritical as the Arab states kill more of their own people in one week then Israel has in 10 years!

But then again, you need the support of westerners like herman the german (n/a).But frankly such nazis are anyway on your side.

afterthought to the above . Islamic society even tells blatant lies and distortions on its web page. It even writes Israel in speech marks. From now on I will write "islam" in speech marks.

http://union.ic.ac.uk/scc/islamic/old/icummah/icu5/israel.html

When they run the "Live is four years old" article, they are going to have to label one of the peaks on the usage diagram "amram discovers live".

usage highs, intellectual lows, why do they always end up being the same thing in online forums?

Always the case on online forums, and also in elementary information theory. Boost the signal without changing the noise ratio, and you're going to end up with a s**tload of c**p and links to goatse posted.

However, the allegations made by amram about that meeting are interesting to me. While I can deal with random people online enjoying the freedom of being able to think through what they say before saying it, and abusing that fact, I'd certainly be the first to speak out against racism in a union society.

It's a very strong allegation (possibly one of the strongest at a multicultural university such as Imperial) and I'm genuinely interested if anyone else has evidence to back it up. I'd not be surprised if there weren't any, but if there were, surely there would be recriminations against the society in question?

What has happened to live? At the start of the year it was a place to get objective information regarding relevant college/union activities etc... Now, looking at the front page we have: a rant by Mr Heeps (not unfunny, but not news. we should perhaps reserve satire.cgcu.net for articles like that!); A very one sided article on funding (Sports aren't the only clubs facing big cuts so why write about sports clubs exclusively?) - published under a pseudonym, an excelent way to preserve accountability; a further satire article, this time with a picture of a girl. Great. That makes the whole thing worthwhile. Again, published under a pseudonym. Finally we have an article which is copied directly (alomst) from the evening standard which will be completely irrelevent to 95% of the student population. Keep up the good work guys!

Although I've not noticed it, apparently there's been an EASTER HOLIDAY on.

Maybe, Rogue Sailor, I could have kept up with the news using other Union Media (I note your email address) but being a non-South Kensington based medic (like a thousand others), I don't have access to anything that you have to offer...

Just a thought...

Why write about sports clubs only? Because a) someone has already reported for Live! that budgets are being cut; b) sports clubs didn't get a cut last year; c) the sports cuts are being inflicted in some very specific and "new" (i.e. they've previously been supported) places and d) the article is not just about this year's cuts, but also about the possibility of pulling some teams out of BUSA.

To sporty I can also confirm what amram said about the Pal soc meeting. The matter was discussed at a Union meeting

Yes, such a complaint was raised - and investigated by Nona (ICU DP C&S) and Sen (President).

I wasn't at the Exec meeting (actualy I was but only for a specific agenda item and not) when they discussed this. However, I did have a quick glance over Sen & Nona's report into the complaint.

Their verdict? Essentially, the complaint was deemed to be thrown out as it was unsubstantiated. More interestingly, Sen & Nona noted "concern" over the "virulently racist" tone of the complainant. Sound familiar?

to Mustapha

As far as I know- and I don't claim to be an expert- serious issues were indeed raised about the tone of the Palestinian society events including some of the leaflets they gave out. There was even some talk of getting College involved, due to the seriousness of such a complaint. I was indeed shocked at the behaviour alluded by "amram" above and think that he has a serious point not to be mocked.

Also , I remeber that the complaint was made by a member of staff .

Sounds like we might be thinking of different complaints then. The one that I saw a report on was definitely made by a student.

To Mustafa .

I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not fully aware of all the details of the complaints made- BUT from my own personal knowledge(having been in the audience at the Jenin talk) -see above- a complaint would indeed be justified.

You seem to incorrectly suggest that it was me from your rather impolite remarks above. The only "virulently racist" people are those that believe the Jews have no right to live in their homeland and that the lives of muslims are expendable when killed by their own thuggish leaders.A view that Israel and its people should be exterminated

I would like to know when ISoc will remove the disgraceful material on its site that writes Israel's name in inverted commas.

Dear Amram,

Were you able to think through your naivety and blind hatred, you might have checked the Islamic Soc website properly.

If you check the link you posted, you'd quite clearly notice the word "old" in the link, (nestling between /islamic/ and /icummah/). That should have been your first clue, but you either haven't picked up on it, or you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

Also if you had properly checked the Islamic Society's website, you would have been presented with a simple screen saying "Site under construction, click here for the old site" Did you actually bother to check your facts? Or is your command of internet navigation as bigoted and thoughtless as most of the rest of your posts? Maybe you just googled for Israel and Imperial... Have you considered a career with as Muhammad Sa'id al-Sahhaf's understudy?

So with a little thought you could have answered your own question - they are redesigning the site at the moment.

Also i've never heard of grammar being offensive...

"inverted comma: Punctuation mark enclosing direct quotations (speech)." Grammar Reference

Oh and Jews have every right to live in their homeland. They do not have the right to annex extra land as they see fit, oppress other religions, or force others from their homes.

Your Move...

my move...

how quaint.

To put something,whether a place, a people or even a person,between speechmarks is to suggest that such an entity is false. It is to delegitimise such an entity. It is to say that even the use of such a word is unacceptable. It is to say that all it stands for are questionable.

The use here by ISoc of speech marks is to deny the existence of Israel (Iraqi information of minister-esque) and to delegitimse its right to exist. Israel is actually both the name of the land and the people. The use of such speech marks is deeply offensive to all people of Israel (ie the entire Jewish people) and not just anyone with a particular view like myself.

The whole article linked to it is also a mixture of fabrications, lies and halftruths.

I agree with your final paragraph and if you were a litlle less ignorant you would realise that the only people being opressed are the non muslims of the middle east, whether Israel's Jews or Lebanon's christians, whose presence is viewed as a stain of shame in the muslim "ummah"or state, that should extend the entire mid east if not the entire globe.

As to people forced from their homes, you would for example know, if you were a little less ignorant, that 2,7 milllion Israeli Jewish citizens were originally jews forced from their ancestral homes by the Arab staes who have then spent the past 55 years trying to exterminate the Jews and the slither of land, the size of Wales, that has been their homeland and place of contiuous existence, for thousands of years.

afterthought

when they remove the offensive page, stop inviting antisemitic speakers, stop supporting anti Western terrorist organisations, and offer talks that give a true view of the sad,corrupt,opressive nature of the Arab world, then I will cease my criticism.

As to mr. Sahaf he was only symptomatic of the mendacity of every Arab state . Such mendaciousness can also be applied to their diatribes against Israel designed to divert their own people's attention form their regressive/opressive ways, with a convenient scapegoat!

<i>To put something,whether a place, a people or even a person,between speechmarks is to suggest that such an entity is false. It is to delegitimise such an entity. <b> It is to say that even the use of such a word is unacceptable. </b> It is to say that all it stands for are questionable.</i>

Hi "Amram"

pillock.

Ahh, here we see the differences Amram. You're talking about events that happened 55 years ago, i'm talking about now.

Is that really justification of Israel's actions in Palestine??? They did it to us 55 years ago, so we can do it to them?

Get real. By that argument, you should be gassing Germans (at least 6 million of them anyway) because that's what they did to the Jews 60 years ago.

That's taking "an eye for an eye" a little too far don't you think?

My parents certainly taught me at a very young age that "tit for tat" was not a valid excuse... maybe that is what is missing in a generation of Israelis today.

I have never defended the past policy of some Muslim states to Jews, in that same way, i do not condone the actions of Israel today.

As to my ignorance, i'm not a history buff, an islamist, or someone particularly fond of the Middle East - when it comes to those points, i'll leave it to you or Seb.

However human rights, today, now, - things going on during my watch - that's what i care about. Past abuses of people's rights do not excuse current or future abuses.

While you are arguing about that a certain group of people should be allowed to live somewhere on the basis of a "book"* (allegedly) written millennia ago, and being an apologist for flagrant abuses of Human Rights, people are dying. Yeah you probably don't care because they are not your people, but i do.

*NB The use of inverted commas here is meant to signify that i don't believe in such book. Don't take it as offensive - I am religiously irreligious, do not wish to acknowledge that the Torah exists. Not a racist, not a racist - just not a believer.

PS. I'm not anti-Jewish, anti-Israel, or a facist. Jews have every right to live in Israel - they do not have the right to do so at the expense of the freedoms of others.

here is the UN Declaration of Human rights, particularly Article 13 - freedom of movement and residence.

here are Israel's responsilities as a State to uphold the Declaration

Of course given the fact that the Israeli secret service are authorised to use torture (in direct contravention of the UDHR) i suspect that they are unlikely to comply with the rest of it.

To sam.

While you may find this incredibly surprising, I have NEVER evoked religion to justify my opinions on Israel Iraq etc. Frankly it is unnecessary and I agree wholly subjective. I do however, argue from a legal, historical, and moral standpoint. The Isoc's inverted commas are only a small part of the problem. The denial, by huge sections of the muslim and Arab world, of Israel's right to existence is often coupled with a denial of their own failings. Indeed their own failings in all spheres, but particularly in regards to human rights, representative government, intellectual freedom women's lib etc do show their up their utter hypocrisy when they criticise Israel, for all its imperfection (I certainly don't think its perfect) is miles ahead and is a model they would do well to aspire to and yet all they want is her destruction. Israel's destruction, something that will not happen without theirs as well as half the world's, is ultimately not in their intersts but is in the interst of their tyrannical rulers who need a scapegoat to distract their attentions from their own problems.

The new clerk, is utterly credible in the Arab world. When Mr. Sahaf said there were no tanks in Baghdad on april 8 many people in the Arab world- including the "palestinian" arabs believed him. It is in a similar vein that 90% of the accusations levelled at Israel are made. Take the battle for Jenin last year. 56 Arabs were killed in intense 2 weeks if fighting of those killed 9 were civillians(who were used as human shields by the Islamic jihad/ Hamas terrorists) the rest were armed combatants. It is instructive to also note that 23 Israeli soldiers died, 13 of whom in one building because the government(i would stay utterly recklessly) refused to bomb the Arabs from the air to spare civillian casualties. The houses were wired with booby traps and explosives. Yet the Arabs , including our own Pal soc claimed it was a "massacre" firstly the very numbbers killed-corroborated by severla sources- make this a lie. The number of armed fighters present also bear testament to the fact that the whole incident was a battle- pure and simple. Yet the Arabs stick to the lie as a tool in their propaganda war. Indeed the number of half truths,distortions, fabrications, and outright lies one hears , from the Arab spokespeople is so incredibly large that one is often forced to spend the time refuting pure fiction that the real issues are never tackled- such as Islamism and Arab rejectionism.

As to "torture" the security services are allowed to use "mild" forms of phsical coercion-in extreme cases when lives are at risk. Any democratic nation faced with 60 suicide bombers a day(yes the vast majority are stopped before they reach their target) would act in such a way when faced with similar extreme dangers. The Americans faced only one such bombing where four soldiers were killed in Iraq (compared to the thousands of Israeli victims of bombings) and the next day they started very stringent security checks- including the unfortunate incident where they shot and killed an entire family that drove to fast towards a checkpoint.

OK I know i am getting boring, but I really can't allow ridiculous staements by n/a , mustafa, or others go unchallenged- but I will try to let go...

Live is supposed to be lighthearted....

To sam I believe that this short article by a canadian professor better expresses things:

Is it numbers that make a masacre? E.g. Bloody Sunday Masacre, the Dunblane Masacre?

Seb:

Numbers do not make a massacre, agreed. But what happened in Jenin was vastly and recklessly exaggerated, with estimates flying around of 500 Palestinians killed and so on. It was in the context of such baseless hyperbole that what happened there was termed a massacre.

In an ideal world, no civilian Palestinians would have had to have been killed. Yet terrorists were hiding in civilian areas, were more or less freely recruiting suicide bombers, were recklessly booby-trapping houses and generally indulging in all kinds of heinous and criminal terrorist activity. In that context, it is obvious that it is the "freedom fighter" terrorists who stand entirely responsible for the reckless endangerment and manslaughter of these mostly innocent civilians.

It is one thing to be sympathetic to the genuine and heartbreaking suffering and poverty of the Palestinian populace and to wish fervently for this to end, but yet another entirely to be blindly and unquestioningly sympathetic to a populace that is in widespread denial about naked terrorism being perpetrated in their name, from their midst, with their tacit support.

Sunil,

Does anyone actually know the true toll in Jenin? How many "civilians" and how many "terrorists" were killed? If the "terrorists" had a camp, similar to those of the Israeli army, and weren't in amongst their countrymen, would it be alright to go in there and blow them all up? How about if they had a leader who wasn't otherwise barricaded, besieged or besmirched in Ramallah, and from whom the Palestinians could draw real leadership and courage, rather than sit by and watch the occupiers systematically try to destroy all forms of government/society. Yes, war* is terrible, but the plight of an oppressed peoples by a country in flagrant breach of the good ol' UN gives you an insight as to why people are prepared to GIVE THEIR OWN LIVES in senseless suicide attacks.

*because the word terrorism is, to my mind, used far too much

My original point, was that the Arab world loves to create fantasies of non existent Israeli cruelty in order to deflect the true opression and repression in every single one of the 22 Arab states. These states , tom t, you are aware, have 75% of the world's oil, 50 times the population of Israel and 800 times the landmass! Indeed tomt was right it was "war" unfortunately because world opinion is so hostile to Israel (some due to historic antisemitism some due to the powerful oil lobby) the government treated the enemy civilllians with kid gloves and cost the lives of 23 soldiers in Jenin. They should have bombed the Arabs from the air (as the US, Brits French and Germanss did in kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq etc)and Israeli conscripts (most 18-19) would have not lost their lives defending terrorist/homicde bombers and the people who were giving them support.

As to the actual Jenin story, part of the problem was the utterly biased report that came from people with pro-arab axes to grind. see this link for a comprehensive account!

http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/amnesty0407-2.htm

"As to "torture" the security services are allowed to use "mild" forms of phsical coercion-in extreme cases when lives are at risk"

Mmm, for physical coercion to have any effect, it must be severe enough to cause pain or discomfort to the recipient. Now i don't know what your definition of torture is, but in mine "mild physical coercion" fits perfectly. I also know that the Geneva convention specifically bans torture, and no civilised country permits it.

to sam, again a tangent that doesn't really discuss the important issues but just FYI- 1. the Geneva convention is between 2 states at war pertainig to uniformed soldiers of an army (that has ratifieds the convention -eg the British army or the IDF itself) and does not apply to terrorists who are ununiformed combatants fighting for no particular state, who do not follow any convention (heck they blow kids up outside bars- is this included in the Genevs convention. In fact the Geneva convention does not mention such "unlawful combatants." At best they could be designated non-uniform - wearing combatants- otherwise known as spies- and as such are allowed to be executed by the convention.

2. mild forms of physical coercion may be use for example to prevent an imminent suicide bomb attack. mild physical coercion- is mild- it includes the prisoner having to stand for up to 14 hours, as well as shackling or handcuffing of the prisoner for an extended period of time.

The unique situation Israel finds itself in (see the attack yesterday) makes such actions acceptable and justified.

3. A government's first duty is to protect its citizens and the country itself. Nowhere in international law does it say that a country must commit suicide. Indeed self defence measures are totally acceptable.

4. Back to the real poin though- How many Arab states (all of which have been at war with Israel) observe the Geneva convention?Answer=zero.

Yet I never hear any outcry to the way for example Israeli pow's are treated. Did you know that there are 9 POW's in Lebanon who Israel doesn't even know if they are alive or dead.

this includes flight navigator Ron Arad who was captured in the

"peace for the Gallilee" conflict almost 20 years ago! the red cross is not allowed to visit. It may be noteworthy to remeber that Israel released hundred of hezbollah/PLO terrorists in exchange for Ron Arad as well as the western Hostages including terry waite. Yet while the Brits and Americans were freed the israelis are still held- if still alive. It may also be interesting to note that Terry waite, a man of "the church" has consistently refused to help speak out on the issue of Israeli pows as we all as Israeli hostages- including the civillian kidnapped in switzerland- even though he ows his freedom to Israel- typical "christian" gratitude!

mmm, sorry - revision is destroying my thought process - i meant Universal Declaration of Human Rights, not Geneva Convention - that does apply in this case. Whether the GC applies is a question of whether war has been officially declared between the two bodies.

As to whether and Arab countries adhere to the GC or the UDHR, i don't care. If Israel claims to be a civilised country it should, regardless of the actions of those all around it. That is the moral position.

Now lets talk about warfare, something i understand...

Israel uses torture. Why? Because conventional methods do not provide results against hit-and-run type attacks, such as those employed by Palestinian Extremists. There is no effective conventional defense against those tactics - you must resort to unconventional tactics. However Israel has the response wrong.

Palestinian Extremists use guerrilla tactics and suicide bombers because they do not have the means or equipment to fight a conventional war against Israel. Terrorism is effective when you have a committed cadre of followers and a defined objective (which is known to your enemy). The aim is not to kill the opposition, it is to instil fear. That fear prevents the opposition from doing what you are fighting against. In this case, Extremists want Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territory, as the Israelis encroach onto that territory, the Extremists use fear to convince the ordinary Israeli population that what their government is doing is not worth the human cost. Terrorism puts pressure on the opposition government by turning a fearful populace against their leaders.

This is roughly the same problem that Britain has dealt with in Northern Island. You cannot pit conventional armies against the IRA. Instead, they deployed the SAS and 14 Int Co into NI to destroy the terrorists through intelligence and surgical strikes.

Israel has not done this. In response to Suicide Bombers, they bulldoze Palestinian homes (something pretty close to Terrorism itself)... That is not effective, because while terrorism works on ordinary people, the equivalent does not work on terrorists. Committed suicide bombers will not stop because their friends homes have been destroyed, if anything they will redouble their efforts - That is the mindset of a terrorist, not an Arab, not a Muslim, it is a Terrorist. To characterise all Muslims as Terrorists just because a few of them are, is tantamount to branding all Catholics as Terrorists, just because the IRA is a predominantly catholic organisation. - I think the Pope might have a problem with that.

So while i agree that extremist Palestinian suicide bombers are attacking Israel, I do not think that gives Israel carte blanche to respond in the way they do. You need to attack the terrorists, not the ordinary Palestinians.

To be honest, If an Israeli tank bulldozed the home of someone known (not just suspected) of planning/inciting/facilitating suicide bombs, i'd think nothing of it, but bulldozing his/her whole village is wrong.. Killing innocents on either side is abhorrent - and Israel is guilty of that - The Palestinian State is not, however i acknowledge that some of their people are.

In short, Israel's response to terrorism is badly flawed, it is not working, and it is causing unnecessary civilian collateral damage.

Sam

terrorism must be fought intelligently. This requires the use of special forces, good intellligence and yes surgical strikes. Israel uses all of these. the IDF helicopters are used for example to hit a known terrorist in his vehicle on a way to an operation. while there is sometimes collateral damage- it is usually kept at a minimum. The IDF only bulldozes the home of a known suicide bomber (who has either succeeded and id thus anyway dead or who is caught just before self detonation.)It does NOT bulldoze the whole village!

The idea behind this policy- started after the "Oslo war" broke out in july 2000 when the PLO decided to accelerate terrorism to new depraved lows- was to prevent the family of such a terrorist benefitting from the huge sums of money- and usually the house itself- that they were given by the PLO as well as the Syrians and even Saddam Hussein (who paid $25000 per bomber). It was also seen as a preventitive measure, as future bombers might think twice if they know that their families will end up homeless.

Suicide bombing is indeed a crime against humanity and the perpetrators deserve the punishment they get.

You are right that terrorists want to frighten the enemy population and cause havoc but you are wrong when you say that the Arab goals are to get Israel to withdraw. their goal is simply Israel's TOTAL destruction and they don't deny it. The largest terrorist group Fatah-

PLO was for example founded in 1964 3 years before any of the disputed territories were occupied in the war the Arabs provoked in 1967. Ultimately there will be no peace until the "Palestinians" and the other Arabs teach their children to stop hating Israel and accept Israel's fundamental right to exist. Until that happens Israel will have to remain on its guard. Golda Meir- Israel's first woman prime minister,once said that there will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us!

Wise old woman Golda- even for a lefty- she also explained how there never ever has been a separate nation or people called"palestine"!

"Wise old woman Golda- even for a lefty- she also explained how there never ever has been a separate nation or people called"palestine"!"

And yet, in the very same response, you assert that Israel has a fundamental right to exist. WHY???????? if the palestinians are deemed never to have existed by the Jews, then I can understand why people who'd been living in transjordan/palestine/whatever you call it pre-1948 won't recognise the existence of Israel. And anyway, if you Israelis prized Israel so much, why did you let Arabs live there for 2000 years, and THEN kick up a fuss about Israel not existing???

tomt ignorance will get you nowhere...

FYI there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel for 3500 years. while most of the Jews were exiled after the destruction of the second temple- MANY continued to live there. The land was sparsely populated though, it is true, total population in 1850 around 100,000 only. Jews returned throughout the centuries whenever they could although the vast majority only returned after the advent of modern zionism 100 or so years ago. The city of Jerusalem for example has had a Jewish majority for 120 years. The Arabs did occupy Israel- and most of the middle east in the7th century and remained for some 350 years-until the turks came, but they never created an independent state there and they never had any desire to do so! In fact while arabs remained in the land of Israel-albeit in small numbers, as the land was generally desertified or swampland,- the majority of Arabs that live there today are "settlers" who arrived as a result of the Zionist renewal of the land. During the British mandate of 1917-47 Arab emigration was 5 times higher than Jewish emigration.In fact Yasser Arafat himself was born in Egypt! As to the name Palestine, as a separate entity, it was only given by the British when they occupied the land from the turks in 1917. 80% of that land is Jordan today. There is no ethnic, cultural, religious,difference between the Arabs of Jordan and those of Judea and Samaria "west bank".

The existence of a "palestinan" people separate to the Jordanian Arabs has been part of the fiction created by the Arab states in their genocidal war against Israel.As I often said the conflict has NOTHING to do with borders or land-the Arabs have 800 times the land of Israel- and has everything to do with Arab animosity and racism towards the non muslim ,democratic Hebrew country!

I am not against an Arab state in the land of Israel ("Palestine") but that state must be in the 80% on the west of the river Jordan. In the name of peace i am willing for compromise of Israel's historic right to both sides of the Jordan but am unwilling to create another arab state (A 23RD) in the remaining 20% . Such a state will only exist to destroy Israel-that is its only raison d'etre-GOOD BYE

read some history boy!!!!

Amram,

Why do you not give out your real e-mail address, or your real name? - Yes the e-mail address I have put in is my real one.

I used to be a regular reader of Live! but since you started posting, the discussions have become boring and political, with people bickering about issues that interest very few of us.

Why don't you just stop inciting political debates in irrelevant topics (like this one), or ask the Editor to create a forum so you can bitch by yourself and leave us to enjoy the way Live! was before you arrived.

Once Israel withdraws from the occupied territories, a lot of the suicide bombings will probably stop.

You seem to be basing the right to exist on some historical writings... That's a pretty weak claim as far as i am concerned. Nations live and Nations die, certainly in the last 4000 years. Do they all have a right to exist now? Or should we be leaving the current occupants in peace?

Israel may have a right to exist, it does not have the right to annex further land as it sees fit... That is the root of the conflict.

It's not about Israel ceasing to exist. Israel continually encroaches on traditionally Palestinian land, bulldozes their settlements and moves newly immigrated Jewish Settlers in. That's warmongering driven by a need for land.

Every day more people immigrate to my native country... And they are entitled too under our laws. And i have no problem with Immigrants.

In order to sustain this immigration, i propose to annex France. France will become the East Bank (of the English Channel) and we will be bulldozing Paris and Ma**eille in order to provide land to our new settlers. All French people will have to move out, i propose that they move to somewhere else, like Belgium.

See my point?

The only reason Israel gets away with this is because Jews have been persecuted in the past, and whole Western nations are now scared of intervening on pain of being called Anti-Semitic.

Get the hint, it's not because you're Jewish, It's not because you're Israeli - it's because you are being aggressive, now stop.

To Sam I really could refute your points -like the inherent contradicitons- on the one hand migrants are allowed to live wherever they like in Britain and hold full rights as citizens after a few years but on the other Jews are not entitled to live in Israel, or parts of it, and are called "settlers" even if they have been living there for ,three,four,five or even more generations. But I will stop. The occasional reader (one suspects nia) does actually have a good point. Most people save maybe 4 or 5 don't really care. And eben amonst those who do their knowledge is poor (save perhaps sunil and seb) and it is rather like having a battle of wits with unarmed men. So let's have a vote eh? Who wants amram to retire eh?

I will go with the majority...

Yeah, I vote that you retire - I don't care about middle eastern politics and I want to enjoy my College gossip unhindered.

So that's one vote.

Amram,

My name is not Nia, because she is a regular reader of Live! If you want to e-mail me feel free (my address is real).

Much as I like lots of participation on Live! I feel the whole obsessions with long political threads that are debated in the incorrect place are bad, and boring.

So Amram please retire, and why don't you e-mail the editor and ask him to create a forum for debating World Political affairs issues, which people who are interested can join.

I just want my gossipy and interesting news back to live!, with interesting short comments relevant to the article.

Thanks

Wow. A reason to return to the forums. We can vote amram out!

Of course I'll vote you out.

Goodbye, you ARE the weakest link... ;-)

that's my real email. Maybe I could write an article an get reponses :) to that article alone? must keep anonymity though- shin bet after me already...

Entschuldigung Sie, Herr n/a aber Ich denke that it should be "you are the weakest link Gooddbye" not vice versa.

danke.

I think its really simple. This was a satirical article connected to world affairs, but surely poking fun at somewhere closer to home. And of all the directions it decided to go, it went to the palistine/iraq/isreal/same-argument-we-seem-to-be-having-else-where.

Lovelly, insane long diatribes. wonderful. Not.

Bring back the Live! that is actually about IC or atleast related to it....

The reason Live! is interesting is because it doesn't stick with one thread.

Different views appear on articles, but it has just got so boring with the whole palistine/isreal debate in your face the whole time.

I agree with "occasional reader", create a new forum where people who discuss that stuff (about 5-6 people) can very happily, and we can have the "Old Live!" back. ;)

Sunil:

Agreed. I'm just not entirely sure we want to set the precedent that "only" x people were killed so it can't be a masacre. Jenin pales into significance compared to something like Srebrenica or the recent butchery in the Congo. Having said that, anti terror operations that involve buldozing the centre of a town are disproportionate and perpetuate rather than damp down the kind of territorial/racial hatreds at work in such places.

Anyway, said enough. I'm not going to get drawn back into this discussion.

If you look at the dates of comments you can see the amount of people arguing with Amram has gradually decreased so I vote Amram retire.

I'm definitely voting for Amram to retire...

All due respect to Live! people and so on, but this particular thread was blatantly going to attract the politicos, what with a picture of MSS and a satirical take on Union politics and world affairs. Therefore Live! readers should expect to see comments as such.

However, other threads being tainted with Amramism/rest-of-the-worldism arguments was even getting on my tits. So, complainers, avoid the threads that are political if you'd rather bicker about the size of the coffee lounge in EE, just remember that some students ARE interested in the issues that have been raised recently, and there's no reason why they shouldn't be.

Maybe the editor should have more discretion about deleting off-topic posts, and by all means, create a separate forum for those whose line-of-sight extends beyond the walkway!

well said tom!

Tom:

What happened in Jenin is indeed well-documented. Even newspapers that, at the time, outright condemned the Israeli military action and fueled the rumours by blindly echoing activist (and terrorist) propaganda have since corrected themselves.

Sam:

I wish I could share your optimism that somehow the terrorism will miraculously die out if Israel unilaterally pulls out of the West Bank and rips up all its settlements there.

There is every reason to believe that terrorism will actually escalate. Why? Because militants will then be able to act with much more freedom against Israel. There will still be the matter of Israel itself existing, the small matter of the fate of Jerusalem, the issue of refugee return - any number of excuses for terrorists to continue to seize on to simply carry on as they are doing.

Any such concessions given by Israel will undoubtedly be seen by them and by terrorists all around the world as a victory for their cause and incontrovertible proof that any dispute can be settled by recourse to terrorism and cold-blooded random killing of civilians until political leaders capitulate.

The key, then, is for popular support for terrorism in the occupied territories to stop and for terrorists to disarm. Only then can a peaceful political process (road map?) with its attendant compromises on both sides be set into motion.

Amram resigns