Yes, actually, mine's a gin and tonic...

Wasn't the bar just refurbished by ICU recently? I seem to remember another re-opening of this bar not so long ago.

I think it's fair enough to want to improve the bar to the punter's tastes, but what was so wrong with the old refurbishment that warrented a spend of thousands of pounds?

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just interested in how all this came about.

Coffee...

cool!

No, it's usually quite hot. :-)

If it's too hot, it burns your lips... not cool...

if the medics can have coffee why can't the Union (at S.ken) have a starbucks???

I thought the fact that coffee drinkers has scalded off all their taste buds was what what enabled them to drink such vile stuff.

Bad Joke Option B:

Not if your lips are already in thermal equilibrium with the coffee; like i presume Mr 'hot lips' Albert would be, being a medic and all.

ummm,

it's slightly different - the Reynolds Bar is serving coffee (good idea - doctors, late nights etc.) It's not a seperate franchise.

It would be equivalent to da Vinci's bar serving coffee as well as all the other stuff they sell.

err, dVs does sell coffee, so long as you're there when food's being served. unfortunately, it tastes vile as it comes from a machine and isn't fair trade. Otherwise you can use the lovely nestle machine in the foyer, which isn't going to go because it maintains student 'choice'

Nia, what wit, what intellectual beauty! I am in lurvvve.....

errr, tom t...

the catering outlet serves coffee in da Vincis - the bar does not. Try asking the nearest barman for a Latte next time you are in there...

If you want Fair Trade products, why not pop down to the Chaplaincy, or over to the ICU Shop on the walkway, they both been selling them for a year or two - with the aim of "maintaining student choice".

Amram, stop using my name in vein. We don't need a starbucks in college. There are plenty of ways of getting coffee anyway, Level 8 physics, level 5 maths, scr, jcr, southside shop etc etc. (even Da Vincis when catering is open as tom points out.) And if you don't like the taste of them there are two Starbucks within walking distance.

Besides which the coffee facility at the reynolds will be either a machine like the one in Da Vinci's or a kettle and a member of bar staff with a coffee jar.

Hear hear to starbuck...no frachise coffee in college please! The coffee in dB's when the food is being served is one of the best in college, the BMS stuff is foul because the machines are never cleaned out properly.

My main objection to Costa, Starbucks etc is their ludicrously (sp?) high prices - I refuse to pay several quid for a cup of hot milk with a splash of decidedly average coffee. Union/college coffee may be decidedly average but at least it's not too expensive!

The best coffee in college is served at the coffee place at the JCR. I agree Starbucks is too expensive but a franchise at the union could have discounts for IC students. Alternatively a Starbucks type cafe could be made. ie clean tables and carpeted floors with comfy sofas. Quality cakes and deserts could be served too. The point I made was that one less bar would be a welcome change for the non beer guzzling students or even the beer drinkers who want a more social/intellectual meeting place. The cafe could and should also be non smoking!

A more 'social and intellectual meeting place'? What makes you think that you are any more intellectually minded than the beer drinkers, or that you are any more social? Get off your high horse - just because you might think that sitting paying over the odds for coffee, while wearing your stripey scarf and jumper and reading a copy of the Times makes you an intellectual superior, it doesn't. It's just something you prefer.

With that said, I believe a 'starbucks' style cafe was among Mustafa's plans for domination^Hreform, along with more 'studenty' food - chips seem to be morally repugnant to the union caterers, and the stringy french fries served in the UDH just don't cut the mustard. I'd personally support the idea of giving people more choice in where to meet up. While I occasionally smoke myself, it would be nice to have somewhere to sit and eat / drink without coming out smelling of smoke.

Is there real ale there? There wasn't six years ago when I had a drink with Nick Carter there...

But yes, a drink certainly sounds nice :)

And to Amran about starbucks--- I'm trying to convine SUs to get Marks & Spencer's sarnies and other quick bites; perhaps get proper franchises for that all important stable income...

I don't own a scarf but do wear a jumper if it's cold that is only sensible. As to price I already suggested that the new "starbucks style" cafe would be cheaper esp. for IC students. As to "the Times" I read the Telegraph, as to you I suppose you leer over your copy of your Daily Sport wearing one of those ever so lame Rugby shirts...

There's been a fair amount of discussion about what I had in mind.

Firstly, I don't necessarily want to replace anything. I do, however, think that we lack variety in terms of the services we offer. We also have serious lack of daytime recreation areas. (Remember Southside will close when it is knocked down to make way for new halls...)

Hence the first task will be to analyse space usage in Beit Quad and see if we can make better use of what areas we have. We then need to see if we can create new areas (and whether there is money to do so).

If you'd like an idea of what I have in mind take a look at the variety of facilities offered at UCL Union. Of course, they're bigger than us but we have much less recreation space (per student) than they do. This is a long-term issue that needs to be addressed.

Incidentally, franchises for a student union are silly. Franchises are where you basically pay a company to use their brand. We don't need that marketing. Let's say we decide to sell burgers in the Union. I reckon we'd get more customers if we discounted them than if we paid for the privelege of sticking a Burger King logo on the packaging.

Concessions are viable, but as has been said, they are likely to be too expensive for a student populous. (Certainly Starbucks / Costa, etc. would be. Sandwiches might have more potential but are well catered for already.)

Telegraph eh? Can't say I'm surprised. Psychic Psmith was the only thing worth reading in that rag.

And coffee is overpriced. It's the second biggest commodity in the world behind oil - do you genuinely think that grinding it up and adding hot water (free) and milk (cheap) makes it worth the money which even cheap places charge? It's a classic case of the prices being set at what they think people will pay, rather than at a sensible level. Why do you think Starbucks has been able to spread out EVERYWHERE - their profit margins are f**king hysterical.

As for the Daily Sport, I'd rather give myself minute paper cuts between my fingers and then douse them liberally in vinegar than read that semi-devolved collection of cellulose.

You don't "read" the daily sport! :)

Given the staff/student protocol I don't expect this to stay up long:

The problem with coffee in Da Vinci's is the same as the problem the medics had with the pre-re-refurbished Reynolds: the staff. I find it inexplicable that in an organisation reputedly run for students the only way to get something that students want is to circumvent / surplant the staff paid to deliver union policy.

Something must be done!

Well, unlike some of you sods, I'd rather be optimistic.

The Reynolds lot came down to our Bar for a while to say hi and get to know us all and I think they'll do damn well if you give them a chance.

Considering that the entire Union down here at Wye has been run by students and just two members of staff, one of whom is part-time, for quite some time now, it can be done.

Just becasue something's different, doesn't mean it's going to fail.

Anyway, since this is coming from a campus who can't design a swimming pool right, I think you've got a right cheek.

Reynolds - Good luck guys. You'll be fine.

Beci,

Maybe I'm missing something but I didn't think anyone on this thread was predicting doom and gloom for the Charing Cross / Reynolds facilities.

Most of the comments seem to be criticising the facilities at South Kensington.

Hmmm. Could've fooled me. I quote... "Given the staff/student protocol I don't expect this to stay up long"

I think the author of that comment (in indirectly criticising the staff in da Vinci's - the main bar/cafe in the ICU Building, South Ken) felt they were in breach of the staff-student protocol (and that hence the discussion comment would be removed).

As it happens, I think that the criticism is sufficiently indirect that it does not breach the staff-student protcol.

So... the "this" in "I don't expect this to stay up long" almost certainly refers to the comment itself (and not the Reynolds).

Beci, I think the comment starting "Given the staff/student protocol" was referring to the previous staff of the Reynolds bar.

Nero, your comment would be more constructive if you were more specific about what you don't like about the staff. Current staff can often change their working practices.

Agree with Nia. The trouble is that we don't channel enough student feedback to help the staff run these outlets. What little feedback does get through is from the students using the facilities (which is clearly doesn't help you broaden out).

Mustafa speaks wisely. He has intertpreted my words as they were truly meant. Thanks for keeping the message up, i think it adds hugely to the debate.

Nia: obstructiveness, unfreindliness, adherence to diabolically ridiculous rules and unbendingness in the face of change... you get the idea.

...and the singular ability to bulls**t with the aim of maintaining the status quo.

Slightly OT but related to a post above.

I notice from a reference within the staff/student link that

"a student should have the right ... not to be a member of the union ... students who exercise that right should not be unfairly disadvantaged, with regard to the provision of services or otherwise, by reason of their having done so."

Does this mean it is illegal for the NUS to arrange deals with shops, etc. that only apply to NUS member students?

I think you can still get an NUS card, having opted out of students' union membership, provided that your students' union affiliated to the NUS.

I think you can also get NUS card regardless of whether you are opted in or out of a union that isn't part affiliated to the NUS, however it costs a bit more (I know someone who did this in their first year at IC).

"I find it inexplicable that in an organisation reputedly run for students the only way to get something that students want is to circumvent / surplant the staff paid to deliver union policy." The permanent staff exist in the union to ensure that there is continuity in the way that the union runs. Otherwise it is possible that from year to year the changes that will happen can vary from extreme to extreme. I'm sure I remember nia once posting on Live! exactly how that did happen at Bath Uni not so long ago. Even at Wye, Beci, you have a full time member of staff running the bar. Myself, I'd like to see it work. But I think that 26 hours per week and being a licensee of a bar is asking too much of a student and there should be at least one full time member of staff. After all, you wouldn't want anyone failing med school continuously because they'd spent too much time working in the bar.

Starbuck: we all know that is what the rationale for having permanent staff is. Trouble is that things don't tend to work like that in this real world of egos, vested interests and empire building.

I have an empire?

cool! - where is it?

I dont get it nero, are you suggesting that the staff are empire building?

"egos, vested interests and empire building"

not usually aimed at staff. usually at a certain other group of people...

If you feel things should be changed, then why not try? From where I am sitting it would seem quite easy. there are a number of routes I could take. Of course I would have to justify what ever I wanted to do, but if it had real student support, then it would go through. plain and simple.

I would suggest that people try and use names that mean something when making some sort of blanket acusation at staff. It would be a lot easier, as has been said before, to see what you are going on about.

Odds on nero that any "rules" were created by a student/sabb or have been made up to fill some kind of gap. As ever such gaps can be plugged. then again, if you ask, you might discover there is a reason!

regarding NUS cards

1. They are hideously easy to fake. Most shops/clubs want a uni name, a date if finish and an NUS symbol, they don't care about the plastic NUS card with the magentic strip thing. There was a nice racket in Physics several years ago doing some really good quality ones

2. There is at least one UL union which just hands over the NUS card when you ask for it and you need to show no ID. Just use that card with your ICU/ULU/ card or IC swipe card

Ed,

Naming someone might breach the Staff-Student protocol.

if "nero" is staff....

I was meaning that people slinging mud should try using their own name.

of course it would be better if people did stuff rather than just bitch.

Whilst it's true that there can be problems with permanant staff, the problems you describe sound like those that could be overcome (except possibly the adherence to rules - which they might be legally obliged to do). There is no reason to suspect that student staff will be any less problematic. It's just people being people.

This is not what Starbuck is referring to but one thing I do remember happening at Bath - we used to have really grumpy staff in one part of the SU (I won't say which one!) and it put people off going there. So they had a little chat with the staff concerned and asked them to be friendly and nice. And lo and behold as if by magic they did and going to this particular place became a much more pleasant experience. I use this as an example because this would on the face of it, seem to be the one of the most difficult things to change about working practices yet they managed it really successfully. People who I'd previously regarded as "scary" were now people who I knew on first name terms and looked forward to having a brief chat with.

Sorry Ed,not going to give you the satisfaction of knowing who - for the moment at least. Its fairly irrelevent anyway.

As for the points being made now about getting involved and trying to change stuff, surely that's exactly what the medics have done?